F/SN UBW TV - Episode 20 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[Dengar]

It's my belief that when he was summoned his memory indeed was shot, because it was, in fact, a failed summoning. He just got his memories back rather quickly and conveniently forgot to mention this.

[Lorhand]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Got quote? Because I've been tought that while he can trace neither Excalibur nor Ea, the reasons for these are completely different.

Excalibur just requires more mana than Archer has to burn. Whereas Ea cannot be traced simply because it cannot be analyzed.

There you go, Complete Material 3 Q&A:

Q: What is the limit of replication in UBW? The highest level of NP (sword types) is probably Ea, but while it might be impossible for Shirou, could Archer make it? Also, under the meaning of weapons, to what extent can he make modern weapons? Must it be only blade types or can he make guns and mobile weapons?

A: Divine constructs like Ea and Excalibur are non-replicable. There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock though. Also, since sword is becoming his origin, the weapons that he has stored are fundamentally limited to close combat.

As for Archer's memories, the fuzzy memory excuse due to an imperfect summoning is partially true. Not the summoning part. He figured out his circumstances and concluded that his opportunity had finally come, after Rin went to sleep. He didn't recognize Rin at first, but that's really because of his own bad memory. It came back to him, when Rin introduced herself.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by Dengar

Got quote? Because I've been tought that while he can trace neither Excalibur nor Ea, the reasons for these are completely different.

Excalibur just requires more mana than Archer has to burn. Whereas Ea cannot be traced simply because it cannot be analyzed.

Originally Posted by Fate/complete material III: World material - FAQ with Nasu: Noble Phantasms, p.134

Q: What is the limit of replication in UBW? The highest level of NP (sword types) is probably Ea, but while it might be impossible for Shirou, could Archer make it? Also, under the meaning of weapons, to what extent can he make modern weapons? Must it be only blade types or can he make guns and mobile weapons?

A: Divine constructs like Ea and Excalibur are non-replicable. There might be some degraded NPs with similar performance in stock though. Also, since sword is becoming his origin, the weapons that he has stored are fundamentally limited to close combat.

Which I find to be retconned bullshit. Avalon is of a similar nature in physical construction, having divine origins, but Shirou can Trace that just fine. Again, the HF inconsistency at work.

EDIT: Dammit, ninja'd.

[Lorhand]

Avalon is a neat exception though, since Shirou had it inside him for ten years, so he can perfectly recreate it, while Saber is around.

[Rising Dragon]

Which still shows that is indeed possible for him to replicate artifacts of Divine nature. Ergo, retcon bullshit!

[Lorhand]

Not really. The general rule says he can't replicate divine constructs. Looking at the process of how Shirou reproduces weapons, it makes sense. He didn't have to think of the process when he reproduced Avalon. It's not a retcon, if the explanation for an exception like Avalon had already been given in the novel. It's something different if you wish to discuss Excalibur at the end of HF Normal.

[Reckoner]

I don't hold the same reverence for "side" material tidbits as you guys do. If I read the VN and nothing more, I would just use my working knowledge of the story word of God be damned. No, Archer cannot replicate Excalibur perfectly. He only said he could get close enough to wipe the rest of them away inside UBW. That's not "replicating" it, but near replication.

[GreyZone]

Shirou also "replicated" a sword that

Spoiler for HF:

was similar to Dark-Excalibur and caused a strong enough beam, to destroy the Greater Grail in the normal ending which is probably on the level of what Archer threatened Saber with. It's unreasonable to think that Shirou with Archer's arm can do something that Archer himself cannot do... in other words if Shirou can do it with Archer's arm, then surely Archer can do it as well.

[GDB]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Which still shows that is indeed possible for him to replicate artifacts of Divine nature. Ergo, retcon bullshit!

You do realize Nasu only makes rules so he can break them, right?

[Rising Dragon]

So I'm noticing. The man shot himself in the foot with this particular retcon (sure, Ea makes sense--that thing was built with effectively alien natures and existed before the concept of "Sword" did, so I'd expect a natural incompatibility there, given his aligned Origin and Element) and I can't help but feel Takeuchi was behind it, given his Saber waifu crap.

[Levani]

and I can't help but feel Takeuchi was behind it, given his Saber waifu crap.

Who is this Takeuchi, he sounds like me...

[Lorhand]

Takeuchi Takashi is co-founder and CEO of Notes, and also the lead artist of Tsukihime, FSN, FZ, Kara no Kyoukai, Notes, etc.

[G147]

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Which I find to be retconned bullshit. Avalon is of a similar nature in physical construction, having divine origins, but Shirou can Trace that just fine. Again, the HF inconsistency at work.

EDIT: Dammit, ninja'd.

Originally Posted by Rising Dragon

Which still shows that is indeed possible for him to replicate artifacts of Divine nature. Ergo, retcon bullshit!

First, remember that Avalon is a relic, Kiritsugu was given the Avalon by the Einzbern as a catalyst to summon Saber, so it's a Noble Phantasms to Saber not others. Kiritsugu was even able to implant and extract it out of Irisviel and himself.

Second, regarding the UBW, yes Archer and Shirou can't replicate the Divine Construct of Ea and Excalibur because the materials use to make them can't be found on Earth but they can create a sword similar to it using materials they can find on Earth, albeit it doesn't have the same powers as the actual one.

Third, Shirou was able to replicate the Avalon because he knows the materials and he can obtain that material used to create, it was inside his body after all.

[steam fish]

how actually strong is unlimited blade works? i know everyone makes a big deal of it because it is a reality marble and lets shiro/archer use already projected swords but how effective is it

[Rising Dragon]

Define what you mean by effective.

[TwilightsCall]

According to Fate/Side Material,

Against a normal opponent this is little more than a mildly annoying ability, but it is the natural enemy of a certain King of Heroes.

[steam fish]

by effective i mean how much more of an advantage would it give during a battle like how much of a difference there is when he fights using it and not using it

[Raviel]

Well, for one thing I'm relatively sure he can project more easily inside UBW and on top of that Archer can sword spam the same way Gil shoots things with the GoB when inside UBW.

[Rising Dragon]

Ultimately it depends on who and what he's fighting against, but nevertheless Unlimited Blade Works provides Shirou/Archer was a number of advantages. Among them, he has countless swords he can choose from and IIRC he can control them at will, performing feats not unlike the projectile spam of Gate of Babylon, as was mentioned. Also as a Reality Marble, he effectively changes the battlefield to his own turf. Any field advantages his opponent may have had--Bounded Fields, laid traps, etc--are all nullified, because they're no longer where they were at; they are now trapped within his hill of swords.

[Dengar]

There's also the fact that the weapons conjured by UBW are completely expendable, which allows him to do some things no one who has the real deal would even THINK of doing.

Originally Posted by Lorhand

There you go, Complete Material 3 Q&A:

Anyway, thanks for the quote. I quite understand where you people are coming from. I hope you don't mind if I take even "the official side material" with a grain of salt. I accept its existence, but I can't always buy into it the same way most people do.

You can call it "headcanon", it matters not to me how many derogatory statements people fling at me.

I mean, before "Ea is a divine construct", the VN already had established that Ea cannot be traced because it cannot be analyzed.

Also wasn't Excalibur forged by faeries, not a god?