Fate/Grand Order (Mobile RPG)

[Homura7]

There's also Kama who is categorized as both male and female because is a male god in the body of a female human (Sakura).

[belatkuro]

Case Files rerun on the 12th. Plus episode has a new written part like in CCC rerun. Also a new 4 star Servant. Faker Hephaestion is now a Pretender.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by XFire

Qin doesn't have a gender in the same sense that Ultimate Kars from Jojo doesn't. The whole "Ultimate Being" thing means they aren't male or female iirc.

Sex = USELESS

[belatkuro]

Got Reines to NP2 from 10 tickets. Got Faker from 30 quartz. She's a permanent unit but I still wanted to get a Pretender.

[FlameSparkZ]

Same. Got Reines with 10 tickets and then Faker took another 10 tickets and 30 quartz.

[Nachtwandler]

No Faker for me. Only got just another copy of Liz which I don't need.

[FlameSparkZ]

Pure Prisms have been added to FGO. You can exchange them for mats at Da Vinci's shop.

This helps so much! Especially with bronze mats that are such a pain to farm but get used up fast

[Homura7]

Faker's true name is

Spoiler for spoiler:

Hephaestion Mnemosyne

Clever, DW.

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by XFire

Excuse me? The Mystic Code was on Jason from the beginning to cover up the fact that he was almost dead from the fights before we met him. He has it on the entire time.

The whole point of that reveal was to hammer home that Jason had essentially been a dead man walking from the start but still managed to get back on his feet.

That's not how the story made it appear at all.

Originally Posted by XFire

Heracles was alive the first time the Argonauts found Hephaestus, and him being able to oppose Artemis was never even considered. And the fact that Hephaestus was able to analyze Achilles without meeting him means Hephaestus would have been able to detect if Herc could oppose her, so the fact that it was never mentioned

No one thought about going up against Artemis at that point period. Only Caldea has actually thought about it.

Originally Posted by XFire

And the machine explicitly did calculate a variable that was already gone when it went into detail on its original plan for Achilles after they found out his heel was shot.

Difference: Achilles was still alive.

Originally Posted by XFire

What are you talking about? Medea Lily is explicitly acknowledged as one of the top ten mages in human history and kills Demon Gods to use as pancake mix. Atlante would have had zero problems against the other gods or their forces as well, for that matter.

And Adult Medea even more so, which was my point.
Also I never doubted Atalante's ability, I doubted her devotion to the cause. Kitty Archer betrayed us before, and no, it's irrelevant that she was a Berserker at that point, as she is still the same Servant, especially non FGO wise. Now, Imagine what would have happened if Artemis Avatar had come down to meet Atalante instead of Orion.
She may be a good fit for Koyans, but is a really BAD one for this Losbelt.

Originally Posted by XFire

The source is "Orion one-shots a buffed version of an enemy Herc explicitly struggled with".

Originally Posted by XFire

Again, the source is "Orion punches an enemy Herc struggled with once and it dies". And also Artemis Nano explicitly comparing his physical strength to that of a God.

Originally Posted by XFire

Wut? The one who fought the Cerberus was the living version of Herc, who was stronger than either version of Servant Herc.

Originally Posted by XFire

Cerberus and Caenis say otherwise.

Originally Posted by XFire

And he didn't have squat for help with the first Cerberus because he literally killed it instantly. He had "help" with the one that then jumped him in the form of Nemo knocking it off his arm with a torpedo, but that was it.

Ad Cerberus:
Not applicable at all.
First of all, we are again back to the point that Herc wasn't out to Kill his opponent, while Orion was. Killing something with a strong blow against a physical weakpoint is comparingly easy, ton wrestle something into submission, as in the latter case, the thing you try to wrestle actually has a chance to fight beck.

Also, he only killed one of them instantly, and that was also charging at him, the other one he had to fight first. i.E. his attack actually got stronger due to the speed the Cerberus had built up.

Putting aside, that the Cerberus got hit literally at it's most perilous weak point, all it took is skill to hit him there (In that case not even that much, as he just bashed in his brain.), which I never doubted he had.

Ad Ceanis:
Actually, the only reason he could hurt Ceanis, was that he had Poseidon's heart. Which wasn't even something he had thought of himself, but it was either Jason or again Caldea.

Originally Posted by XFire

Uh, no, this is a stupid anime cliche that has no reflection in reality.

See above. Also to knock someone out without killing them, you need to either completely exhaust them, or hit non-leathal spots with just the right amount of strength. One such spot is the solarplexus, which can also turn out fatal.

Originally Posted by XFire

No it wasn't. Orion states that his reason for shooting her is that even if she isn't his Artemis, she's still Artemis at her core and she doesn't belong in the sky alone. His entire internal monologue and the Ortygia Amore Mio NP scene spell that out word for word. Hephaestus even asks him if the reason he's doing this is revenge or punishment and Orion denies it.

After which he says he is doing it because she is calling herself Artemis while being like that.

Originally Posted by XFire

His "help" with Caenis was a "you're not invincible" button and nothing else. He took a Divine Spirit in single combat and beat her half to death.

Originally Posted by XFire

That's explicitly contested by Achilles, who admits that even without his heel busted he couldn't have actually taken on Artemis.

That was achilles take on it, not Hephaestus'. Greek heroes have wounded gods all over greek mythology. Diomedes for example hurt Aphrodite while she tried rescuing her son during the Tojan War.

Originally Posted by XFire

And that phrase is never used. Jason says Herc totally would have beated the Cerbeerus if he'd fought him, but Jason believes Herc could take Zeus in a one v one.

It was used in the English version, translated, by hopefully professional, translators. I give you that the same translators also translated Arthoria as Altria despite knowing better though.

Originally Posted by XFire

Uh, what? He can call on it freely even when the actual goddess is in the LB trying to kill him. And Artemis Agnos isn't a twelve layered invincibility shield, its a power steroid.

That is because Artemins (Pan-Human) can probably influence the Losbelt to a certain degree. At least enough to buff Orion.

Originally Posted by XFire

Herc was buffed to hell from the start and the casters were explicitly surprised he survived a single shot. The first one took his entire God Hand and the second killed him completely.

Putting aside, that said casters probably were Medea and Asclepius, neither of them really had a way to compare his strength to that of a god.
Other Casters such as Sheba or Tamamo would be far better sources here. Then again, 3 Tails Tamamo's buffs would probably work better against Artemis to begin with, as the Witchcraft skill can bypass magic resistance.

Originally Posted by XFire

We literally kill Herc in Oceanos by bypassing God Hand completely.

With a rather special, creator-god-cursed box, that is also a divine construct.

Originally Posted by XFire

It does, however, lock Herc into close range combat.

Until you give him a bow. Yes, he might spawn without Hera's bow, but that doesn't mean that he can't use bows period.

Originally Posted by XFire

You really, really don't want to try to use "it's Gil" in defense of FSN Gil's competence. Literally every time he's beaten its because he misjudges his enemies strength.

Generally fair enough, but Gil was seriously surprised that someone with a divinity as high as Hercules' could actually break it.

Originally Posted by XFire

Watch Heavens Feel. Arturia Alter (who is literally just Arturia instead of an alternate version like in FGO) trashes him 1 v 1, up to an including physically overpowering him with her bare hands.

You do remember that all of Sakura's Servants had boosts way beyond what they would normally have even with the best-master +renown combos though, right?

Ilya is also not exactly the smartest of Masters, the smart move here would have been forsaking Madness Enhancement and give Herc 100% thinking power. The same fight would have gone very differently with a proper master, the same way it went way differently when Medusa finally got rid of Shinji as her Master.

Originally Posted by XFire

Also, Caliburn was never stronger than Excalibur at any point in the lore. Caliburn is the weapon Arturia broke by being too strong.

Caliburn didn't simply break because Artoria was too strong, that was part of it, yes, the other part was a certain behavior of her's that Caliburn didn't like.

And while it is, unlike Excalibur, not unbreakable, it still had the same power output as the former, while combining (most of) Excalibur's and Avalon's properties in one item.

Originally Posted by XFire

If Arturia was summoned Artemis being an alien probably would have been enough to unseal Excalibur at which point she could just ignore her completely and shoot through the planet to kill Olympus

Divine Construct.

Originally Posted by XFire

"The level of half a Divine Spirit", as in she's not a Divine Spirit at all she just got halfway there by being really good at killing stuff. And no, they didn't. Scathach says she kills Divine Spirits, not that she is one.

Pretty sure someone said otherwise. In the end it doesn't really matter though, as she still has an Anti-Divine skill due to having killed gods before.

Almost the same as Mordred vs Siegfried, where I can tell you that Siegfried would have blasted through her, due to Mordred's Dragon attribute... Not to mention that he is smarter too.

Originally Posted by XFire

No, he wouldn't, and no, it isn't. Artemis explicitly fired at them twice and killed a buffed Herc with those two shots.

Because the shots actually managed to reach him, which wouldn't have been the case if he had had a ranged weapon to counter-fire, as seen with Orion. If the same shots had reached Orion, Orion would have been obliterated - no questions asked.

That aside, since we can get a pretty good idea about who the casters were, we don't even know how strong those buffs were, or if they were helping at all.

Originally Posted by XFire

That is in fact exactly what a BP is, as described by Emiya and by Nasu's description of the technique. By overloading the NP to the point of destroying it Emiya can forcibly raise the rank of the NP by one level. That's all it does.

Which is more than enough if said noble phantasm is, again, a divine construct.

Originally Posted by XFire

And the fact that the first shot was needed to destory the defenses at all is my point. Orion Orkhos, the NP used for those two shots, is explicitly able to ignore any and all defenses....and Machine God Artemis didn't care and still blocked the first shot basically with her face. If he hadn't been using that NP the arrow would likely have bounced off.

And yet, said NP was incented at the spot. Again, Greek heroes have hurt and fought gods all over the place. The Olympians were never described as omnipotent or immortal to begin with either.
Yes, you needed some divinity of your own, which was however rather relative as almost all Greek heroes claim to have some, at least ancient, blood relation to the gods.


---

I somehow managed to draw Beni - Maybe Koijiro will someday get his duel now
I really don't like the Amazoness Event. I don't even mind the part where my Servants get put to rest for some time, what I do mind though is that 99% of my AP are rotting due to each delivery only costing 1AP.

At the same time the game is telling me to use 6 Servant,s forcing me to use at least 3, when each of those deliveries can be done with a single AOE servant.

E: also Ishtar, now I'm just lacking Eresh.

[XFire]

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

That's not how the story made it appear at all.

They literally spell out that he's been a dead man walking from the start

I'm going to put the rest in a spoiler, as it's largely just more back and forth that doesn't really matter to the crux of our argument anyway.

Spoiler for length:

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

No one thought about going up against Artemis at that point period. Only Chaldea has actually thought about it.

Again, spelled out in story that they thought about it and gave up

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Difference: Achilles was still alive.

Herc was alive when they met Hephaestus, because Jason had met him and Herc dying was the last thing that happened before Jason fled and the rest of the crew made it to Olympus.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

And Adult Medea even more so, which was my point.
Also I never doubted Atalante's ability, I doubted her devotion to the cause. Kitty Archer betrayed us before, and no, it's irrelevant that she was a Berserker at that point, as she is still the same Servant, especially non FGO wise. Now, Imagine what would have happened if Artemis Avatar had come down to meet Atalante instead of Orion.
She may be a good fit for Koyans, but is a really BAD one for this Losbelt.

You said they wouldn't be useful which is ridiculous when Medea Lily is obscenely powerful on her own, and Atlante only "betrayed" us because we were about to cause the deaths of thousands of children she'd spent months bonding with right in front of her, after she told us earlier that her loyalty was to helping them.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Ad Cerberus:
Not applicable at all.
First of all, we are again back to the point that Herc wasn't out to Kill his opponent, while Orion was. Killing something with a strong blow against a physical weakpoint is comparingly easy, ton wrestle something into submission, as in the latter case, the thing you try to wrestle actually has a chance to fight beck.

Also, he only killed one of them instantly, and that was also charging at him, the other one he had to fight first. i.E. his attack actually got stronger due to the speed the Cerberus had built up.

Putting aside, that the Cerberus got hit literally at it's most perilous weak point, all it took is skill to hit him there (In that case not even that much, as he just bashed in his brain.), which I never doubted he had.

None of this is correct.

The kill/not kill thing you're talking about doesn't exist and any experienced martial artist you brought that up to would laugh his ass off at the idea.

Cerberus' head is not a weak point, it has two backups if one goes down.

The only reason Orion didn't kill the second one was because it snuck up and actually latched on to him, preventing him from getting a good shot at it.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Ad Ceanis:
Actually, the only reason he could hurt Ceanis, was that he had Poseidon's heart. Which wasn't even something he had thought of himself, but it was either Jason or again Chaldea.

Because Caenis has an invincibility button over water, and it would have worked just the same against Herc as it did Orion. The moment it was gone Orion obliterated her despite her explicitly being comparable to a Divine Spirit even without it.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

See above. Also to knock someone out without killing them, you need to either completely exhaust them, or hit non-leathal spots with just the right amount of strength. One such spot is the solarplexus, which can also turn out fatal.

This is objectively wrong and you need to stop talking about "weak points" like people are video game bosses

All you need to knock someone unconscious is to cut off their oxygen or rattle their brain a bit.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

After which he says he is doing it because she is calling herself Artemis while being like that.

No he doesn't. He denies Hephaestus' question and doesn't answer it at all because he's keeping the real reason to himself until his internal monologue at the end, where he literally says outright "even though you aren't my Artemis, you're still her in the end, and I can't leave you like that".

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

That was Achilles take on it, not Hephaestus'. Greek heroes have wounded gods all over greek mythology. Diomedes for example hurt Aphrodite while she tried rescuing her son during the Trojan War.

Irrelevant and once again trying to bring in the source myth to use in the Nasuverse. Also Aphrodite would have been a Divine Spirit if that happened, and Machine God Aphrodite is significantly weaker than Machine God Artemis.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

It was used in the English version, translated, by hopefully professional, translators. I give you that the same translators also translated Arthoria as Altria despite knowing better though.

I don't believe it was, and irregardless it was used in the context of Jason talking about how Herc would have beaten the one Orion fought. Again his reaction was "oh there's one of those here as well" meaning he hadn't seen one in the LB before.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

That is because Artemins (Pan-Human) can probably influence the Losbelt to a certain degree. At least enough to buff Orion.

What it means is that Orion always does and always will have access to it, irregardless of where he is.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Putting aside, that said casters probably were Medea and Asclepius, neither of them really had a way to compare his strength to that of a god.
Other Casters such as Sheba or Tamamo would be far better sources here. Then again, 3 Tails Tamamo's buffs would probably work better against Artemis to begin with, as the Witchcraft skill can bypass magic resistance.

Medea Lily is more powerful than either of them. Tamamo just flat-out isn't that powerful even in her three tailed form, her curses are only really noteworthy because they can draw on her physical body (i.e. the body of the nine-tailed fox) as a power source. Tamamo Cat manages to use her "ultimate technique" in CCC despite having E-rank in Curses.

Sheba is weaker than Circe and Medea Lily has been stronger than Circe in a fight since before she began training under her, we literally see Lily strong arm her way onto the island and force Circe to accept her as a student.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

With a rather special, creator-god-cursed box, that is also a divine construct.

You said his Spirit Core couldn't shatter before that, in the context of him facing off against the power of Machine God Artemis, whose power vastly exceeds that of a Divine Construct.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Until you give him a bow. Yes, he might spawn without Hera's bow, but that doesn't mean that he can't use bows period.

Yes it does. Zerker Herc can't use weapons with the same skill he had in life.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Generally fair enough, but Gil was seriously surprised that someone with a divinity as high as Hercules' could actually break it.

No, Gil was surprised Herc surpassed his legend and came back again after using up all his labors.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

You do remember that all of Sakura's Servants had boosts way beyond what they would normally have even with the best-master +renown combos though, right?

No? Corrupted Herc is explicitly far weaker than normal Herc, Medusa is still being held back by her own internal limiters, and Saber Alter traded speed for power and is still not on the level she'd be in life.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Ilya is also not exactly the smartest of Masters, the smart move here would have been forsaking Madness Enhancement and give Herc 100% thinking power. The same fight would have gone very differently with a proper master, the same way it went way differently when Medusa finally got rid of Shinji as her Master.

No to all of that. The Madness Enhancement gave Herc a massive boost in stats meaning without it he would have been even more outmatched, he still retains his capacity to make combat decisions and his skill in HtH combat, and more importantly he was fighting Saber who defeated Kojirou Sasaki in a duel. Same Kojirou who equals Musashi and is the literal epitome of sword skill in the Nasuverse. "Skill" would not have saved him.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Caliburn didn't simply break because Artoria was too strong, that was part of it, yes, the other part was a certain behavior of her's that Caliburn didn't like.

Wrong, that's the source myth. Caliburn in Fate was explicitly lost because of Morgan le Fay.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

And while it is, unlike Excalibur, not unbreakable, it still had the same power output as the former, while combining (most of) Excalibur's and Avalon's properties in one item.

No it didn't, it didn't even come close in the original, and that was before Excalibur was retconned into being a literal Death Star superlaser in disguise. And it didn't have any of Avalons properties, it was the one that did the ageless thing and gave that to Excalibur later on.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Divine Construct.

What? Who cares, it's Excalibur. It one-shotted Sefar, whose power is comparable to that of all the Greek Machine Gods combined.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Pretty sure someone said otherwise. In the end it doesn't really matter though, as she still has an Anti-Divine skill due to having killed gods before.

Which she did without being a Divine Spirit herself, which was the point.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Almost the same as Mordred vs Siegfried, where I can tell you that Siegfried would have blasted through her, due to Mordred's Dragon attribute... Not to mention that he is smarter too.

Mordred doesn't have the Dragon attribute, what are you on about? Actually how are they relevant at all?

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Because the shots actually managed to reach him, which wouldn't have been the case if he had had a ranged weapon to counter-fire, as seen with Orion. If the same shots had reached Orion, Orion would have been obliterated - no questions asked.

Again, this is wrong. Herc has blocked attacks capable of killing him before with his sword and as long as the attack is broken the energy released will be invalidated by God Hand. We see this happen with Archer's Caladbolg II in FSN.

Meaning even if he'd both had such a weapon and been able to use it....nothing would have changed because he lacks the power necessary to cancel one of the attacks.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

That aside, since we can get a pretty good idea about who the casters were, we don't even know how strong those buffs were, or if they were helping at all.

Again, Medea Lily is literally among the strongest Mages to ever live and explicitly surpassed her teacher Circe by the time she left.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Which is more than enough if said noble phantasm is, again, a divine construct.

No, it isn't. It just increases the power and rank, it doesn't grant them more properties like the ability to ignore defenses or reach the heavens.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

And yet, said NP was incented at the spot. Again, Greek heroes have hurt and fought gods all over the place. The Olympians were never described as omnipotent or immortal to begin with either.
Yes, you needed some divinity of your own, which was however rather relative as almost all Greek heroes claim to have some, at least ancient, blood relation to the gods.

No, Ortygia Amore Tri-Star was invented on the spot. Orion Orkhos has always been Orion's Noble Phantasm, its what Artemis override with Ortygia Amore Mio in their base incarnation.

That's the base myth again, and irrelevant because Machine God Artemis explicitly has defenses that would invalidate any attack that could reach her without some kind of way to bypass them. Defenses that would not have been present in any of those myths even if they did happen.

And the Divinity thing is to get past God Hand, it has nothing to do with actual Divine Spirits, much less the Machine Gods.

In the end this is largely all irrelevant, though, because of the factor of Hephaestus having known about Herc and never once considering him for opposition to Artemis.

Heracles just flat-out isn't capable and was never once implied to be capable of opposing Artemis. Orion is a fucking Grand Servant who explicitly has more raw strength than Herc and a Noble Phantasm uniquely suited for attacking Artemis...and still needed massive support and backup to stand a chance.

There were at least two different times during the arrow duel that someone else (Hector, Mandricardo) had to step in to stop an arrow to buy Orion more time, and Paris had to give him another arrow forged from himself, and then Orion had to draw on all of those factors plus his own connection to Artemis to create Ortygia Amore Tri-Star to actually win.

Herc had none of those things and even if you gave him the bow and arrows, he lacks the Noble Phantasm to pierce her defenses, the allies capable of diverting other shots, the physical strength to survive that number of shots (don't say God Hand we already established Divine Constructs (like the bow) bypass that), and the ability to create something equivalent to Ortygia Amore Tri-star.

Not to mention that even Orion needed to be in a specific spot unmolested for the entire time to carry out the duel, which required beating back Odysseus and the new Echidna, which means Herc likely wouldn't have ever had the chance to try it.

[Homura7]

You two are still at it?

[XFire]

Originally Posted by Void

You two are still at it?

We took a break so he could farm for the New Years event

I'll be stuffing my responses in spoiler tags to keep them from taking up half a page going forward though

[AC-Phoenix]

Originally Posted by XFire

They literally spell out that he's been a dead man walking from the start.

They also spell out that he got the mystic code in tandem with the letter. Just think about it like this: From the moment Jason had actually entered that temple, he would have remembered having said Mystic Code, yet he didn't.

A mystic code isn't exactly something you can sneak onto people in FGO.

Originally Posted by XFire

You said they wouldn't be useful which is ridiculous when Medea Lily is obscenely powerful on her own, and Atlante only "betrayed" us because we were about to cause the deaths of thousands of children she'd spent months bonding with right in front of her, after she told us earlier that her loyalty was to helping them.

Atalante would betray us the moment anything labeled Artemis would tell her to. And the reason she betrayed us is indeed children, she wanted to save over the several billion ones that get saved when proper human history is restored.
And Adult Medea, who is again more powerful than Lily, got beaten by freaking Rin.

It doesn't even matter that it happened when she was a Servant, and by you weaker than when alive, as Lily would have lost that one too if you make her trade spaces with her adult version. Then again, Lily wouldn't have been as hostile to begin with. Why doesn't it matter: Rin isn't there. Instead the ones there are other Servants and divine spirits.


QUOTE=XFire;6499460]
None of this is correct.

The kill/not kill thing you're talking about doesn't exist and any experienced martial artist you brought that up to would laugh his ass off at the idea.

Cerberus' head is not a weak point, it has two backups if one goes down.

The only reason Orion didn't kill the second one was because it snuck up and actually latched on to him, preventing him from getting a good shot at it.[/quote]

I fully disagree here.
First off, of course it's a weak point it's a freaking brain right behind that skull. The point that they even remarked where he hit him is proof of that, as it would have otherwise been meaningless to even mention it.

That fictional Martial Artist you are talking about, won't laugh long, when he dead. Especially considering how we aren't even talking about a human, but some kind of animal.
Again, most of the places you can use to knock a human out can be very lethal. Not even sure why you deny the solarplexus here, considering how you literally can't breath when hit there, even without the right amount of force to knock you out. And let's not forget about the dozen of cases where securities thinking they could just knock people out cold on their heads, only for them getting charged with 2nd or 3rd degree murder later.

That aside, this isn't even about a human, it's about a freaking animal with sharp claws and teeth. (Also 3 sets of said teeth.)

And again: Herc wrestled it into submission, in both legend and fate. Orion on the other hand killed it. Could herc just have killed it? Of course, he did the same with the Hydra, which has even more heads than a giant 3 headed dog.

Fun enough, the story itself even kinda agrees with me, as Odysseus got killed by an enemy he didn't properly kill, and that fought back.

Also, if you read his profile, you will soon find that any beast type thing just drops dead when orion gets summoned as Grand Archer. That's not particular muscle strength, it's a part of his Grand Graph.

QUOTE=XFire;6499460]
Because Caenis has an invincibility button over water, and it would have worked just the same against Herc as it did Orion. The moment it was gone Orion obliterated her despite her explicitly being comparable to a Divine Spirit even without it.[/quote]

Which is exactly why Orion beating her up wasn't all that special. First off, he had help, second off, Achilles without his heel cut could have done the same, as could herc have, if you gave him the poseidon-heart.
Yes Herc would have lost a few lives, but that is mostly because he literally doesn't give a shit about them until he is down to about half.

Originally Posted by XFire

This is objectively wrong and you need to stop talking about "weak points" like people are video game bosses r

Uhm... Please tell me you aren't denying that humans actually have weak spots... Because they do, and it's even represented in how armor developed, especially in the medieval.
Also, the solarplexus is an actual body part, which is indeed a weak point as being hit there can both kill you or knock you out.

Originally Posted by XFire

All you need to knock someone unconscious is to cut off their oxygen or rattle their brain a bit.

Both which can easily be lethal, which was my point.

Originally Posted by XFire

Irrelevant and once again trying to bring in the source myth to use in the Nasuverse. Also Aphrodite would have been a Divine Spirit if that happened, and Machine God Aphrodite is significantly weaker than Machine God Artemis.

Considering that no one denied it having happened, it actually happened during fate's trojan war. Unless you want to deny Diomedes having been there, as that's literally a huge part of his legend.

Originally Posted by XFire

I don't believe it was, and irregardless it was used in the context of Jason talking about how Herc would have beaten the one Orion fought. Again his reaction was "oh there's one of those here as well" meaning he hadn't seen one in the LB before.

"Here" is relative.

Originally Posted by XFire

What it means is that Orion always does and always will have access to it, irregardless of where he is.

Yes, I still don't see how that makes it his power rather than Artemis' though.

Originally Posted by XFire

Medea Lily is more powerful than either of them. Tamamo just flat-out isn't that powerful even in her three tailed form, her curses are only really noteworthy because they can draw on her physical body (i.e. the body of the nine-tailed fox) as a power source. Tamamo Cat manages to use her "ultimate technique" in CCC despite having E-rank in Curses.

The remarkable part is that they ignore magic resistance, something Medea's spells don't.
3 Tails Tamamo is already stronger than most A-Rank servants, if not even S rank, we don't know that as we weren't given the S-Ranked ones power level.

A Ranked ones have a Raw Power of approx 100 though, while 3 Tails Tamamo has 729. And no, Medea isn't S-Ranked.

The even funnier thing here is that we don't even know if that is really her full power at that level, as even her one tailed version has been shown to far exceed the given power level simply by actually using her morph skill. Because unlike in FGO, it's not necessarily a purely defensive skill. More on that later though.

Originally Posted by XFire

You said his Spirit Core couldn't shatter before that, in the context of him facing off against the power of Machine God Artemis, whose power vastly exceeds that of a Divine Construct.

I'd like to say fair point, but the Arc of the Covenant is rather special even in that category. Especially in ignoring the lives, something not even Artemis could do, as she still had to obliterate them.

Originally Posted by XFire

Yes it does. Zerker Herc can't use weapons with the same skill he had in life.

Which I never claimed to begin with. I said he can still use them, not that he can use them with the same skill. Two very different things.

Originally Posted by XFire

No, Gil was surprised Herc surpassed his legend and came back again after using up all his labors.

Herc was literally not dead there, as you remarked yourself. The thing he was surprised about is Herc managing to actually break out of the chain.

The reason why he didn't vanish could be several fold btw., as his lives can actually regenerate, and he also has a guts skill.

Originally Posted by XFire

No to all of that. The Madness Enhancement gave Herc a massive boost in stats meaning without it he would have been even more outmatched, he still retains his capacity to make combat decisions and his skill in HtH combat, and more importantly he was fighting Saber who defeated Kojirou Sasaki in a duel. Same Kojirou who equals Musashi and is the literal epitome of sword skill in the Nasuverse. "Skill" would not have saved him.

It's still not the same he has when ME isn't active. The whole point of it being perma-active is to put less of a strain on Ilya. If you want to bring Kojiro into this btw, Kojiro couldn't have killed him 12 times, and in most arcs, Saber almost loses when fighting Herc, or only gets to fight him with several of his lives gone already.

Especially in fate, where Archer has already taken the majority of them using UBW.

Originally Posted by XFire

Wrong, that's the source myth. Caliburn in Fate was explicitly lost because of Morgan le Fay.

Just that one does not include the other, as the information we got is that she lost it due to a trap set by morgan, in addition to what we already knew.

Originally Posted by XFire

No it didn't, it didn't even come close in the original, and that was before Excalibur was retconned into being a literal Death Star superlaser in disguise. And it didn't have any of Avalons properties, it was the one that did the ageless thing and gave that to Excalibur later on.

Again, stated differently in the original VN, Anime, and even on the wiki, which does btw also point it's sources towards the VN.

Originally Posted by XFire

What? Who cares, it's Excalibur. It one-shotted Sefar, whose power is comparable to that of all the Greek Machine Gods combined.

Fun fact, we don't actually know the machine god's power levels. In fact, we even have something pointing towards them being way stronger than you think, as even Amaterasu lost, who btw outclasses Sefar, lost. For all we know he might have had a special ability.
the power levels we do know (and are still unreliable, due to her not using Morph are:

Sefar, Amaterasu, A Rank Servants, and all tail versions of Tamamo.

It's also noteworthy that the one who actually shot it wasn't Arthoria, but Zeus.

Originally Posted by XFire

Which she did without being a Divine Spirit herself, which was the point.



Mordred doesn't have the Dragon attribute, what are you on about? Actually how are they relevant at all?

No, the point is that she gets advantages against Heroic spirits, much like Siegfried gets against dragons. Also, you are right, FGo forgot to give Mordred her Dragon attribute, which she would have as she is a clone of Arthoria's

Originally Posted by XFire

Again, this is wrong. Herc has blocked attacks capable of killing him before with his sword and as long as the attack is broken the energy released will be invalidated by God Hand. We see this happen with Archer's Caladbolg II in FSN.

Meaning even if he'd both had such a weapon and been able to use it....nothing would have changed because he lacks the power necessary to cancel one of the attacks.

It woulds, as in Orion's case, and I wiill word it differently this time, never connected, since Hektor (Of whom we know he is definitely weaker than Herc btw) deflected it.

Originally Posted by XFire

Again, Medea Lily is literally among the strongest Mages to ever live and explicitly surpassed her teacher Circe by the time she left.

And yet, we know that her abilities are more limited than Adult Medea's. Sheba also got kinda tricked, and wasn't even at full power by the time we've met her.

Originally Posted by XFire

Again, spelled out in story that they thought about it and gave up

In the end this is largely all irrelevant, though, because of the factor of Hephaestus having known about Herc and never once considering him for opposition to Artemis.

Putting aside that they probably thought about that before meeting Hephestos to begin with, since Hephestos never mentions that he himself had thought about it before, at the time Hephestos did his calculations, Hercules was, and I will say that again, already completely gone.

Originally Posted by XFire

Heracles just flat-out isn't capable and was never once implied to be capable of opposing Artemis. Orion is a fucking Grand Servant who explicitly has more raw strength than Herc and a Noble Phantasm uniquely suited for attacking Artemis...and still needed massive support and backup to stand a chance.

Which still doesn't make him physically stronger, and even if, it would just be because his Grand Glyph is theoretically stronger. Theoretically, because he didn't really do anything noteworthy compared to what we've seen from other Servants, up to the point of shooting Artemis down.

Originally Posted by XFire

There were at least two different times during the arrow duel that someone else (Hector, Mandricardo) had to step in to stop an arrow to buy Orion more time, and Paris had to give him another arrow forged from himself,

And you think they wouldn't have done the same if the shooter had been herc why exactly?

Originally Posted by XFire

Herc had none of those things and even if you gave him the bow and arrows, he lacks the Noble Phantasm to pierce her defenses, the allies capable of diverting other shots, the physical strength to survive that number of shots (don't say God Hand we already established Divine Constructs (like the bow) bypass that), and the ability to create something equivalent to Ortygia Amore Tri-star.

Aehm no, we haven't established that at all? We established that the Arc of the Covenant in particular does it, And again, that one is rather special, as it's cursed by god, with a rather particular curse. It's a really special one defying all logic even within the franchise.

Also, knowing Nasu, Herc would have either changed classes all of a sudden, or randomly pull out one of his Archer skills out of his ass, maybe even combine the bow with Athena's bow.

Originally Posted by XFire

Not to mention that even Orion needed to be in a specific spot unmolested for the entire time to carry out the duel, which required beating back Odysseus and the new Echidna, which means Herc likely wouldn't have ever had the chance to try it.

Not sure what makes you assume that, given that everyone and everything was held back by others than Orion himself at that moment. What exactly makes you think they wouldn't have protected Herc?

[XFire]

Spoiler for size:

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

They also spell out that he got the mystic code in tandem with the letter. Just think about it like this: From the moment Jason had actually entered that temple, he would have remembered having said Mystic Code, yet he didn't.

A mystic code isn't exactly something you can sneak onto people in FGO.

Again, this is.....just flat out not what happened. Jason has explicitly been wearing the Mystic Code the entire time. He was wounded when Artemis killed Herc and the rest of the Argonauts escaped. Medea cast the spell on him at the same time she suppressed his memories.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Atalante would betray us the moment anything labeled Artemis would tell her to. And the reason she betrayed us is indeed children, she wanted to save over the several billion ones that get saved when proper human history is restored.
And Adult Medea, who is again more powerful than Lily, got beaten by freaking Rin.

It doesn't even matter that it happened when she was a Servant, and by you weaker than when alive, as Lily would have lost that one too if you make her trade spaces with her adult version. Then again, Lily wouldn't have been as hostile to begin with. Why doesn't it matter: Rin isn't there. Instead the ones there are other Servants and divine spirits.

This is objectively untrue by the fact that Atlante didn't betray the Argonauts when facing Artemis, and Atlante explicitly told us ahead of time that her loyalty was to the survivors well ahead of time.

And Gilgamesh lost to Shirou, it's almost like underdogs making upset victories through compatibility and preparation is a running thing in FSN.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

I fully disagree here.
First off, of course it's a weak point it's a freaking brain right behind that skull. The point that they even remarked where he hit him is proof of that, as it would have otherwise been meaningless to even mention it.

That fictional Martial Artist you are talking about, won't laugh long, when he dead. Especially considering how we aren't even talking about a human, but some kind of animal.

Again, most of the places you can use to knock a human out can be very lethal. Not even sure why you deny the solarplexus here, considering how you literally can't breath when hit there, even without the right amount of force to knock you out. And let's not forget about the dozen of cases where securities thinking they could just knock people out cold on their heads, only for them getting charged with 2nd or 3rd degree murder later.

That aside, this isn't even about a human, it's about a freaking animal with sharp claws and teeth. (Also 3 sets of said teeth.)

And again: Herc wrestled it into submission, in both legend and fate. Orion on the other hand killed it. Could herc just have killed it? Of course, he did the same with the Hydra, which has even more heads than a giant 3 headed dog.

Fun enough, the story itself even kinda agrees with me, as Odysseus got killed by an enemy he didn't properly kill, and that fought back.

Also, if you read his profile, you will soon find that any beast type thing just drops dead when orion gets summoned as Grand Archer. That's not particular muscle strength, it's a part of his Grand Graph.

The Cerberus has three heads, it's not a weak point. They tell us he smacked it in the head because of the absurdity of it dying when thats all he did.

If you're going to ignore the advice of actual martial artists about fighting then there isn't much point to this particular side rant.

I'm leaving off with this as a sincere suggestion for your personal safety: Do not under any circumstances attempt to subdue or kill a wild animal with your hands (or any weapon that doesn't involve copious amounts of near sonic lead). You will die horribly and painfully. You are wrong about this and I'm actually genuinely worried you believe it, and it could get you hurt IRL. Just don't.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Which is exactly why Orion beating her up wasn't all that special. First off, he had help, second off, Achilles without his heel cut could have done the same, as could herc have, if you gave him the poseidon-heart.
Yes Herc would have lost a few lives, but that is mostly because he literally doesn't give a shit about them until he is down to about half.

"Despite her explciitly being comparable to a Divine Spirit without it". Did you skip that part? Because that puts her above both Herc and Achilles. And then Orion just literally beats her half to death.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Uhm... Please tell me you aren't denying that humans actually have weak spots... Because they do, and it's even represented in how armor developed, especially in the medieval.
Also, the solarplexus is an actual body part, which is indeed a weak point as being hit there can both kill you or knock you out.

They don't have "press here to deal massive damage" spots like you're suggesting, and people have survived having spears shoved through their guts for literally hours, so again, you don't know what you're talking about here.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Both which can easily be lethal, which was my point.

No your statement was that killing was "easier", which is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Considering that no one denied it having happened, it actually happened during fate's trojan war. Unless you want to deny Diomedes having been there, as that's literally a huge part of his legend.

It's never even been mentioned, nor has Diomedes, so until otherwise yeah, it didn't happen.

Also, not Machine God and it would have been the much weaker Aphrodite. So irrelevant anyway.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

"Here" is relative.

"Here" is my word used when paraphrasing Jason, his actual lines are an expression of surprise we'd seen a Cerberus in the LB followed by "well Herc could have totally taken it"

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Yes, I still don't see how that makes it his power rather than Artemis' though.

He can call on it whenever he wants and it can't be prevented from reaching him by the original owner.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

The remarkable part is that they ignore magic resistance, something Medea's spells don't.
3 Tails Tamamo is already stronger than most A-Rank servants, if not even S rank, we don't know that as we weren't given the S-Ranked ones power level.

A Ranked ones have a Raw Power of approx 100 though, while 3 Tails Tamamo has 729. And no, Medea isn't S-Ranked.

The even funnier thing here is that we don't even know if that is really her full power at that level, as even her one tailed version has been shown to far exceed the given power level simply by actually using her morph skill. Because unlike in FGO, it's not necessarily a purely defensive skill. More on that later though.

Don't use the power levels, Nasu himself said they were mostly nonsense. We have multiple instances of Tamamo exerting her full strength even as a three-tailed form and all of them fall hilariously short of most high-end Servants, much less someone who can use a Demon Pillar for ingerdients.

Also there aren't actually A- or S-Rank Servants, that doesn't exist outside the context of that one quote Nasu later called mostly meaningless.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

I'd like to say fair point, but the Arc of the Covenant is rather special even in that category. Especially in ignoring the lives, something not even Artemis could do, as she still had to obliterate them.

It's really not, and you spend the entire lead up to that killing Herc multiple times to make sure the Arc can kill him.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Which I never claimed to begin with. I said he can still use them, not that he can use them with the same skill. Two very different things.

Meaning that you're talking about him using just the actual bow without any kind of Archer NP to try and shoot down Artemis.

The absurdity of that statement doesn't even need to be addressed.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Herc was literally not dead there, as you remarked yourself. The thing he was surprised about is Herc managing to actually break out of the chain.

The reason why he didn't vanish could be several fold btw., as his lives can actually regenerate, and he also has a guts skill.

No.

He explicitly mentions Herc managing to come back a 13th time as being surprising and surpassing his legend.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

It's still not the same he has when ME isn't active. The whole point of it being perma-active is to put less of a strain on Ilya. If you want to bring Kojiro into this btw, Kojiro couldn't have killed him 12 times, and in most arcs, Saber almost loses when fighting Herc, or only gets to fight him with several of his lives gone already.

Especially in fate, where Archer has already taken the majority of them using UBW.

ME is always a permanent effect, Illya was suppressing it when he wasn't fighting it to make things easier on herself. And again he retains his full capacity for HtH and close combat under ME.

The point of Kojiro is that even if he increased his skill it wouldn't have helped him against Saber Alter. She'd already beaten someone vastly superior in skill to both herself and Herc.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Just that one does not include the other, as the information we got is that she lost it due to a trap set by morgan, in addition to what we already knew.

No.

Again, leave the base myth out of it.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Again, stated differently in the original VN, Anime, and even on the wiki, which does btw also point it's sources towards the VN.

All three of them say the sword is inferior to Excalibur, and again this was before Excalibur was retconned into being a literal Death Star superlaser.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Fun fact, we don't actually know the machine god's power levels. In fact, we even have something pointing towards them being way stronger than you think, as even Amaterasu lost, who btw outclasses Sefar, lost. For all we know he might have had a special ability.
the power levels we do know (and are still unreliable, due to her not using Morph are:

Sefar, Amaterasu, A Rank Servants, and all tail versions of Tamamo.

Again, don't try to actually use those power levels, Nasu himself said they were nonsense.

Amaterasu doesn't outclass Sefar, she got murdered by it without slowing it down.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

It's also noteworthy that the one who actually shot it wasn't Arthoria, but Zeus.

Addressing this separately, but are you suggesting Zeus used Excalibur? Because that never happened in any timeline ever. Arturia is the one who killed Sefar, period.

Zeus in his combined mecha form only managed to drive it off, he never managed to kill it even in the Lostbelt.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

No, the point is that she gets advantages against Heroic spirits, much like Siegfried gets against dragons. Also, you are right, FGo forgot to give Mordred her Dragon attribute, which she would have as she is a clone of Arthoria's

No she doesn't. She gets an advantage against Divine Spirits after becoming a Servant because she killed them while alive.

FGO didn't forget, Mordred never had the Dragon attribute because the whole point is that she's an inferior knockoff of Arturia.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

It woulds, as in Orion's case, and I wiill word it differently this time, never connected, since Hektor (Of whom we know he is definitely weaker than Herc btw) deflected it.

Again, the example of Calabolg says otherwise. Meanwhile Hector had an explicitly indestructible sword and also killed himself blocking a single shot.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

And yet, we know that her abilities are more limited than Adult Medea's. Sheba also got kinda tricked, and wasn't even at full power by the time we've met her.

Adult Medea can tear apart a user of True Magic in a one v one duel, this is not a sucessful line of pursuit for you. It's also irrelevant because its Medea Lily who murders a Demon Pillar on screen for funsies, and those things are individually above most Servants even in groups.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Putting aside that they probably thought about that before meeting Hephestos to begin with, since Hephestos never mentions that he himself had thought about it before, at the time Hephestos did his calculations, Hercules was, and I will say that again, already completely gone.

This is circular logic that implies Herc must be capable of opposing Artemis. Hephaestos made no mention of any of the Argonauts, including the archer Atlante.

None of them were capable and none were considered.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Which still doesn't make him physically stronger, and even if, it would just be because his Grand Graph is theoretically stronger. Theoretically, because he didn't really do anything noteworthy compared to what we've seen from other Servants, up to the point of shooting Artemis down.

This is straight up denial at this point, and relies on your, to be blunt, outright silly denials of the Caenis and Cerberus fights.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

And you think they wouldn't have done the same if the shooter had been herc why exactly?

Because they were summoned after he was already dead?

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Ahem no, we haven't established that at all? We established that the Arc of the Covenant in particular does it, And again, that one is rather special, as it's cursed by god, with a rather particular curse. It's a really special one defying all logic even within the franchise.

Also, knowing Nasu, Herc would have either changed classes all of a sudden, or randomly pull out one of his Archer skills out of his ass, maybe even combine the bow with Athena's bow.

The Arc of the Covenant is not cursed, and its never noted to be particularly special or powerful aside from killing the people that touch it. It's Divinity just let it slip by God Hand. Artemis literally says earlier that her own Divinity should have been doing the same before Orion reminds her they're in his Saint Graph.

And this is tantamount to admitting it wasn't possible. "Oh the writer would have saved them" is an anti-argument.

Originally Posted by AC-Phoenix

Not sure what makes you assume that, given that everyone and everything was held back by others than Orion himself at that moment. What exactly makes you think they wouldn't have protected Herc?

They weren't there when Herc was, what are you talking about?

Spoiler for size

Also, I'm not going to be addressing the Kill/Not kill thing going forward because you're beginning to make me genuinely concerned for your safety around wild animals, and I don't want you to get hurt trying to "prove" me wrong.

[XFire]

Actually, as fun as this has been, we've pretty much hit the limits of this discussion. It did get me to go re-read Atlantis (and yes, Herc dying was the last thing that happened, Jason had the code on the entire time, and Herc was alive when they met Hephaestos) but at this point I don't think it matters.

I get the idea this is mostly an emotional argument from you wanting to see Herc do something cool in FGO again, and I get that, but we're clogging the thread. So you can respond to my comment and then we can both drop it.

Do me a favor and drop it in a spoiler tag for size concerns though.

[Yu Ominae]

Somehow, my FGO NA account doesn't show Mecha Eli-Chan in my servants despite the fact that I didn't do anything to it.

I decided to get help from support.

[Cosmic Eagle]

This CQ is made so easy by Morgan.....Put her with Casturia and Merlin and she slowly grinds any opposition to death.

However, her NP's anti-Man buff helped a lot. If the enemies were some other trait it would be far slower. Like FAR slower. I am really starting to think she is one of those Servants who needs NP2 and above to be viable else her damage on non-Man is far too crap.

[Yu Ominae]

I confirmed that I f*ked up by using my Mecha Eli-Chan Mk II to level up my Jeanne (Ruler).

Bummer, I got no Alter Ego servant now. (NA account)

[GDB]

She'll be back, but you only get to choose one (not sure if NA's had their rerun yet. You'll just have to wait another year and a half.

[Yu Ominae]

There was one a few years ago. FGO English didn't say anything yet regarding the next event.

Eli-Chan Mk II was still with me back then.