Current Israeli-Palestinian Crisis ( May 2021)

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by c933103

As you doesn't seems to agree with two state solution,

I don't know where you're getting this from. Literally the only solution I've put up in this thread was a two state solution (if only that it was impossible without the US and Israel actually agreeing to it; and again, Israel is full of crazies on par with Hamas).

But I'll even walk that back. I'm not pretending I know what the best solution is. There is however a bare minimum that needs to be respected which will require Israel ceding a whole bunch of territory i.e. Israeli to respect the UN recognized State of Palestine and get out of the West Bank.

The other alternative is ending the Jewish ethnostate and the entire region becomes one Democratic state with all the exiled Palestinians returning and having equal rights with the Israelis. But even that won't end well. There's enough bad blood between the Israelis and the Palestinians at this stage (and rightly so on the Palestinians end) that if all the exiled Palestinians returned, the Israelis would never have Democratic majority.

Perhaps the best answer lies somewhere in between. Either way, never gonna happen as long as Israel and the US say no.

Originally Posted by c933103

- I find it difficult to classify terrorism, especially terrorism against civilian, as act of defend

I wouldn't classify Israel's disproportionate response and refusal of multiple ceasefires as an act of defense either. But the question still stands.

Originally Posted by c933103

- Are you talking about Arabic people living in Israel, or Palestinian, being second class citizens?

Well... let's focus on the Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza; and keep the Palestinians who are second or third class Israeli citizens as a separate matter.

[TinyRedLeaf]

I'll keep it short, since I agree with Anh_Minh, that it can't be expected of any of us to "know" a solution to this nearly one-hundred-year-old crisis.

So, the next best thing, in my view, is be at least better informed about the complexity of the problem at hand, especially in light of the current status quo.

I haven't watched any of the videos linked in this thread. It's faster and more convenient for me to read relevant articles. And this article, in my view, comprehensively sums up why all sides — Israel, Hamas in Gaza, and the Palestinian Authority in the occupied West Bank — share some of the blame.

Depressingly, the status quo will stay, because it's in the interest of all the current players for this cycle of violence and ceasefire, and violence again, to continue. Yes, it's outrageous that Israel is using disproportionate force against civilian targets in Gaza. But let's not lose sight of the fact that Hamas aren't angels either.

And just like how there is no good end in sight for the coup in Myanmar, there is no good end for the Israeli-Palestinian conflict either in the forseeable future.

[c933103]

Originally Posted by OH&S

I don't know where you're getting this from. Literally the only solution I've put up in this thread was a two state solution (if only that it was impossible without the US and Israel actually agreeing to it; and again, Israel is full of crazies on par with Hamas).

But I'll even walk that back. I'm not pretending I know what the best solution is. There is however a bare minimum that needs to be respected which will require Israel ceding a whole bunch of territory i.e. Israeli to respect the UN recognized State of Palestine and get out of the West Bank.

If you think Hamas despite being authority in Gaza have right to lay claim and fight for territories they claim elsewhere in the Palestinian area, then why don't you think other entities in the area also have right to lay claim and fight for territories in the area?

The other alternative is ending the Jewish ethnostate and the entire region becomes one Democratic state with all the exiled Palestinians returning and having equal rights with the Israelis. But even that won't end well. There's enough bad blood between the Israelis and the Palestinians at this stage (and rightly so on the Palestinians end) that if all the exiled Palestinians returned, the Israelis would never have Democratic majourity.

The problem is less about the election process of who have a majority which can be fixed by improving the electoral system design, it is more about how to ensure a liberal, open, fair, secular, cooperative, functional society to emerge, and be able to sustain itself for the hundreds of years to come no matter changes to society or demography or diplomacy in those times. But then given the area's current situation I don't see how such proposed single state could do any better than Bosnia and Herzegovina in 1990s

Perhaps the best answer lies somewhere in between. Either way, never gonna happen as long as Israel and the US say no.

Of course no one would voluntarily participate in something that hurt their own interest but couldn't see much to gain from it.

I wouldn't classify Israel's disproportionate response and refusal of multiple ceasefires as an act of defense either. But the question still stands.

I don't think asking Israel to hand over territories they already control before start is a sensible term of ceasefire, when Israel isn't in a militarily disadvantaged position.

Well... let's focus on the Palestinians living in the West Bank and Gaza; and keep the Palestinians who are second or third class Israeli citizens as a separate matter.

Palestinian living in West Bank and Gaza have their own government which carry out all formal government function, I don't understand how they can be said as second class citizen of Israel which is functionally another country.

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by c933103

Palestinian living in West Bank and Gaza have their own government which carry out all formal government function, I don't understand how they can be said as second class citizen of Israel which is functionally another country.

That is a fiction.

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by c933103

If you think Hamas despite being authority in Gaza have right to lay claim and fight for territories they claim elsewhere in the Palestinian area, then why don't you think other entities in the area also have right to lay claim and fight for territories in the area?

I think I see what your issue is. You’re unable to reconcile the fact that Hamas is both the current government of Gaza and a political organisation spanning the entirety of the State of Palestine.

I gave a very narrowing set of criteria regarding why I thought Hamas was well within reason to use the inciting actions by Israel in the West Bank as justification for their attacks (even if at the end of the day, its all political). What other entity could possibly meet that criteria within the State of Palestine?

Originally Posted by c933103

I don't think asking Israel to hand over territories they already control before start is a sensible term of ceasefire, when Israel isn't in a militarily disadvantaged position.

I was talking about the most recent conflict. There were no conditions about handing over territory. Just about the inciting issues. Which were absolutely Israel’s fault.

I’m still waiting on an answer to the original question.

Originally Posted by c933103

Palestinian living in West Bank and Gaza have their own government which carry out all formal government function, I don't understand how they can be said as second class citizen of Israel which is functionally another country.

You know. I can admit when I screw up or am in the wrong. That detour into WWII history? I’m the one who misunderstood the point you were making. If it made me look bad, its something I’ll have to cop on my chin and continue with my life.

Right now, I don’t know if this is peak delusion or if you’re being wilfully obtuse. I thought I asked a straightforward question but it seems to me that you’re evading on answering it. Ignore the citizenship angle (which you’re still wrong on btw) and focus on the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank.

Saying “Well acshually… the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank each have their own government” is a non-answer.

Please answer the question. What exactly are Palestinians supposed to do if Israel commits atrocities against them like the inciting incidents?

[c933103]

Originally Posted by OH&S

I think I see what your issue is. You’re unable to reconcile the fact that Hamas is both the current government of Gaza and a political organisation spanning the entirety of the State of Palestine.

I gave a very narrowing set of criteria regarding why I thought Hamas was well within reason to use the inciting actions by Israel in the West Bank as justification for their attacks (even if at the end of the day, its all political). What other entity could possibly meet that criteria within the State of Palestine?

A political organization doubling as government of some place attacking civil target for their political goal isn't something nice to talk about, that is even worse than some countries also hurting civilian in their military campaign

I was talking about the most recent conflict. There were no conditions about handing over territory. Just about the inciting issues. Which were absolutely Israel’s fault.

I’m still waiting on an answer to the original question.

Isn't the inciting issue over the handling of Palestinian people in East Jerusalem which is now controlled by Israel?

You know. I can admit when I screw up or am in the wrong. That detour into WWII history? I’m the one who misunderstood the point you were making. If it made me look bad, its something I’ll have to cop on my chin and continue with my life.

Right now, I don’t know if this is peak delusion or if you’re being wilfully obtuse. I thought I asked a straightforward question but it seems to me that you’re evading on answering it. Ignore the citizenship angle (which you’re still wrong on btw) and focus on the Palestinians living in Gaza and the West Bank.

Saying “Well acshually… the Palestinians in Gaza and the West Bank each have their own government” is a non-answer.

Please answer the question. What exactly are Palestinians supposed to do if Israel commits atrocities against them like the inciting incidents?

Like a war with their military? That would make more sense.

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by c933103

Like a war with their military? That would make more sense.

You know they don't have a military. They do have the Palestinian Security Services; but they are seen as more subservient to Israel than they are to the people they're supposed to protect.

With those options exhausted, what are Palestinians supposed to do?

[c933103]

Originally Posted by OH&S

You know they don't have a military. They do have the Palestinian Security Services; but they are seen as more subservient to Israel than they are to the people they're supposed to protect.

With those options exhausted, what are Palestinians supposed to do?

If those people think their own country's security force isn't sufficient to protect them then they should overhaul and modernize their own security force.

[OH&S]

How are they supposed to do that to such a degree that it can reasonably compare against Israeli forces which are backed the US?

The PSS does not have total jurisdiction over the the State of Palestine. Gaza's already out of the picture as Hamas has control. There are defined areas where PSS has jurisdiction but the places where the inciting incidents occurred are in areas where Israel has jurisdiction.

The scope of the PSS and their areas of jurisdiction are laid out in the Oslo Accords. They cannot meaningfully resist the Israeli forces.

What are Palestinians supposed to do if they fall outside of those jurisdictions?

[c933103]

Originally Posted by OH&S

How are they supposed to do that to such a degree that it can reasonably compare against Israeli forces which are backed the US?

The PSS does not have total jurisdiction over the the State of Palestine. Gaza's already out of the picture as Hamas has control. There are defined areas where PSS has jurisdiction but the places where the inciting incidents occurred are in areas where Israel has jurisdiction.

The scope of the PSS and their areas of jurisdiction are laid out in the Oslo Accords. They cannot meaningfully resist the Israeli forces.

What are Palestinians supposed to do if they fall outside of those jurisdictions?

So you mean you are not satisfied with the consequences of Oslo Accord giving jurisdiction of those area to Israel?

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by c933103

So you mean you are not satisfied with the consequences of Oslo Accord giving jurisdiction of those area to Israel?

I'm not putting forward any opinion regarding that as its irrelevant to the question I asked.

But at this point I've gone on long enough with this conversation as its clear that you're incapable of answering the core question (and it was the most important question posed )

Which to be honest, I already expected.

[Jaden]

What exactly are Palestinians supposed to do if Israel commits atrocities against them like the inciting incidents?

I would admit defeat and side with the winners instead of going down with the losers, or try to escape as a refugee.

When your land is occupied by a foreign power, that's what you do to survive, if you aren't immediately genocided.

[OH&S]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I would admit defeat and side with the winners instead of going down with the losers, or try to escape as a refugee.

When your land is occupied by a foreign power, that's what you do to survive, if you aren't immediately genocided.

That is indeed one of the few valid responses to the posed question.

Normally, I'd be itching to continue the conversation but I'm just happy that someone actually answered the question directly. Respect.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Jaden

I would admit defeat and side with the winners instead of going down with the losers, or try to escape as a refugee.

When your land is occupied by a foreign power, that's what you do to survive, if you aren't immediately genocided.

I don't know how much it still doable or not, especially in Gaza.

[c933103]

Originally Posted by OH&S

I'm not putting forward any opinion regarding that as its irrelevant to the question I asked.

But at this point I've gone on long enough with this conversation as its clear that you're incapable of answering the core question (and it was the most important question posed )

Which to be honest, I already expected.

Well I am trying to understand what people would think in different view through repeatedly answering and questioning different aspects. So if you decided not to continue approaching the discussion then it'd be fine but regrettable