High School DxD [LN/M] - Volume 25 Discussion / Poll

[Lucidrago]

Saji has armor though. And I wouldn't say Issei is better at hand-to-hand than Saji, Issei is just more powerful.

Then it makes no sense for Milana to have been reincarnated because the main reason was because she had a very dense power of light. And I doubt Griselda just suddenly gained her power of light.

Strada is able to infuse holy power into his fist. Why wouldn't certain humans be able to use the power of light?

[DragonOsman]

Saji has armor, but he still shouldn't be on par with Ise or Sairaorg, of all people, in hand-to-hand combat. It leaves a plot-hole.

Okay, you got me there. I didn't remember that about Milana.

[Lucidrago]

Well Issei shouldn't have been on par with Sairaorg in hand-to-hand, but he was. That leaves a pothole considering how much Sairaorg trained in hand-to-hand combat.

His armor provides him protection from their attacks. Never said he was as powerful as them. He can give them a good fight at least. Just because someone's stronger doesn't mean everyone under them can't fight with them.

And to me, Saji's skills in hand-to-hand are equal to Issei's, but Issei is just more powerful. Boosting his power to insane levels is different from being good in hand-to-hand conbat.

[EternalDragonGod Ise]

You just don`t like Ise, that is a fact.
I mean always always, but yeah.
Ise is better H2H, don`t know how great the Gap is but there is a Gab. That we could see through all Vols. Saji is not weak, that i don`t want so say but yeah he can not even be compared to Ise anymore, I belive he knows himself that Ise is to far away now (If i am not wrong he did say something like this in vol 22? don`t know anymore). And yeah Saji trains hard, but so does Ise, hell Ise wants to become the strongest Dragon, for this he needs to train much harder than anyone.

[kiiro94]

Originally Posted by DragonOsman

@Lucidrago: Ise and Vali are Maou candidates, too, but in Volume 21 it was also said that they are future Super Devil candidates. The Underworld already acknowledges their true power.

Candidates? It is not a title give. It is just how they are called when a Devil surpasses the limit of a Devil which is above than Satan Class. They are not candidates, they already are Super Devils.

@Kiiro: In Volume 23.5, according to spoilers, Saji was all of a sudden able to fight on par with Ise as a close-range fighter like a Power-type even though he should be a Technique-type. Yes, sure, Saji can fight on par with Ise, but that's if he fights with his normal fighting style as a Technique-type with Vritra's abilities. But in Volume 23.5, all of a sudden, Ise needed to use Partial Dragon Deification to take him out? Are you kidding me? I'm telling you, this is just Ishibumi trying to make Ise's fights against Dulio and Saji look like the one against Sairaorg in Volume 10. There's no other reason for Dulio and Saji becoming Power-types even though they're supposed to be Technique-types. I mean, yeah, Dulio is really powerful in his own right. But he's not a Power-type.

Bold 1 According to spoilers Issei is Maou Class in CxC. But I have not read that in any part. So I dont know why it is impressive that Sanji could give fight to Issei considering that Sanji BxB already released the full potential of Vrtria.

Bold 2 You guys are exaggerating things. Power type? What does that mean? Fighting in a Melee battle does not make you a Power Type. I thought we already cleared that any user in DxD can rely on all 4 type of battle where it is clear they specialize in a certain style.

Rias is a power type also and she does not fight physically. Dulio and Sanji are still better on techniques but not for that reason we wont see how good or bad they are in a melee battle.

Saji was or is a technique type due his abilities of the dragon king, but now Saji has BxB which is an armour similar to Issei's, I dont find weird that he could fight Issei. Many say Issei is Satan Class already with CxC, I mean, there is still no clear evidence to state that. Issei was Mid Ultimate Devil Class with his CxC before he had Dragon Drive. He suddenly got to Satan Class? Really?

That is what I find weird and not Sanji being able to fight him, the power up Issei had in his CxC is the double of power he had before. Grendel was near Satan Class and it needed Issei and Sairaorg to beat him, this mean he was half away to be Satan Class.

Dont confuse Power type to have a Melee battle.

By the way, it's not "glass canon", either. It's "glass cannon". Two Ns. "Canon" refers to whether something actually happened in a story or not. Like canon continuity. It's not that thing that shoots those giant balls that blow stuff up when they hit.

Thanks. I knew something was wrong. I found weird that canon hahaha.

Originally Posted by Lucidrago

Again Dulio was that strong due to his skills with his Longinus. And humans were able to have light abilities as well as with Milana and Griselda. Unless you think they only gained their power of light once they became Brave Saints?

Dulio was known to be the strongest exorcists due to his skill with Zenith Tempest. Exorcism really is just killing devils, vampires, and other evil beings. It really doesn't matter what you use whether It's a holy sword, the power of light, or a powerful Sacred Gear.

Well, It is hard to say and there is no clear evidence. What we do know is that he is strong now. I find hard to call someone the best exorcist for his longinus.

I mean, they supposed to have great power before being reincarnated as an Angel. Dulio had more aura than Irina.

You're trying to equate Dulio's abnormal aura with anything besides him being the possessor of Zenith Tempest, the second most powerful Longinus. And then you use the ridiculous fight in Volume 23 as proof. Dulio's power of light must surpass Milana's then. Which is really ridiculous.

I am saying that thanks to being reincarnated as an Angel, he had a increase in all his stats and also in his aura. Those increase of stats put him in the same league than a Seraph, If it was his Longinus then he will be far superior than a Seraph which would be a God and that was not said.

You're basically just saying that his stat increase was what allowed him to be a Seraph candidate, instead of his power and skill with Zenith Tempest. His power with Zenith Tempest was what gave him ten wings.

Tell me if Issei is able to take Barakiel's Holy Lightning attacks in his Crimson armor, what sense does it make for Dulio's power of light to damage him even more than Barakiel's did?

Yes, there is a lot of evidence. Equally fought Issei CxC, has an abnormal aura. Can created light spears equal to Issei's dragon shot in CxC.

And about Dulio and Barakiel, it will be only ridiculous if downplay Dulio that much. Barakiel was never stated to be Satan Class level. Not even Azazel.

[Lucidrago]

So you're just assuming that it was his stat increase that made him a Seraph candidate? Dulio was already really powerful before becoming an angel.

Don't you think they were just making him a candidate for the position like Issei and Vali are candidates for the Maou position?

Nothing has been stated about his power of light. It was his skill and power with Zenith Tempest that gave him 10 wings. And his Balance Breaker gives him 12 golden wings and four halos. But really it doesn't make sense that Dulio would just go for a fist fight with Issei and that his power of light is on par with Issei's power in CCQ and he's suddenly tanking attacks like Sairaorg.

If Ishibumi was going to do that then he should have explained it better or he shouldn't have even done it at all.

If Ishibumi has Cao Cao rush at Issei and has him go for a head-on fight with Issei and start tanking attacks like Sairaorg, then.........................

@Eternal You're equating being stronger with being better in everything. So if we basically removed both of their Sacred Gears and had them fight hand-to-hand, could you claim that Issei would win? Hand-to-hand. No strengthening. No special abilities. Just a pure hand-to-hand fight. Give me proof that Issei would win against Saji with just hand-to-hand skills.

Don't confuse having an OP ability with being strong in something else. Issei is better in hand-to-hand combat because he's stronger and more powerful? But is Issei just beating Saji due to the virtue of him being the better hand-to-hand fighter or having the more powerful weapon?

You acted like I said that Saji was stronger than Issei, which I didn't say. I just said that their hand-to-hand skills could be equal. Never said anything about Saji being more powerful than Issei. And plus what proof is there that Issei trains harder than Saji. Again that's assuming they have weapons at the same level which they don't. Doesn't mean Issei trains harder than Saji. They both train pretty hard.

[Raptor178]

Something that bothers me is why does Vidar even know about the status of Rose's and Ise's romantic relationship? Did I miss an important memo?

[Lucidrago]

Let's wait until the volume is translated to know that for sure.

[DragonOsman]

@Kiiro: Azazel is Maou-class. He needed to use Fafnir armor to fight Cruzeray with Ophis' snakes because otherwise they'd both be at the level of the original Maou. Barakiel has greater attack power than Azazel, but aside from that they're equal which means they're both Maou-class. Ise in Volume 22 was said to have gotten stronger himself from the influence of Dragon Deification, and that enabled him to beat Barakiel. And in the Volume 21 chapter "Report", it said that the Underworld had gotten two future Super Devil candidates in the Sekiryuutei of the Blazing Truth, Hyoudou Issei, and the Hakuryuukou of the Morning Star, Vali Lucifer.

This from "Report" in Volume 21:

In the human world, Trihexa and the Evil Dragons left behind a tremendous impact, as well as the irregular, supernatural presences which fought against them; all of them were recorded by the media, and it triggered an enormous and controversial debate between humans. And so, this battle left behind an inerasable scar on both the human world, and the supernatural worlds. However, in this campaign, a new hope was also born. Two future Super Devil candidates appeared on the Devil’s side. They were the ones known within the history of the Two Heavenly Dragons as the rare talents [Hakuryuukou of the Morning Star] Vali Lucifer and [Sekiryuutei of the Blazing Truth] Hyoudou Issei—.

Both are considered future Super Devil candidates as of this chapter.

And then this for the other one:

…I didn’t expect that the person to attack the western side would be Barakiel-san! Not to mention the fact that this developed into a battle between the [Kings]. I immediately equipped my crimson armour. Let alone my ordinary Balance Breaker, after that Evil Dragon War, I could now also equip my [True Queen] form immediately. And not only that, my strength had also been increased due to influence of Dragon Deification. Even if my opponent was Barakiel-san, I wouldn’t be at a disadvantage.

It's not just because of a spoiler (though Noman, when giving spoilers for DX4/Volume 23.5, also said that Ise in Cardinal Crimson Queen is on the level of Grayfia and Diehauser now), but also because of the above quote that we all say that Ise in Cardinal Crimson Queen is Maou-class.

Anyway, Lucidrago may actually be right about Ise and Saji being equal in hand-to-hand combat skills. But no one's saying that Power-types have to be good at hand-to-hand. I'm just saying that Saji shouldn't be able to fight on par with Ise at close range like Sairaorg.

Two posts late.
@Lucidrago: He does know. He did what he did to play cupid for Ise and Rose because they weren't making any progress, and also because he wanted to make Ise furious so he could get the chance to fight an angered Sekiryuutei. He's a true battle maniac who wanted a fun fight after bringing the wrath of a dragon onto him.

@Raptor: I don't know how he knows. But I'm guessing Gondul told him.

[kiiro94]

Yes, but Cao Cao is a human and Dulio is an Angel. A huge difference. No need to compare. We dont need to know if he has a great power of light to use in spears.

We know he has an enormous and abnormal aura. That already shows how strong he is. His longinus did not make him have 10 wings, otherwise Issei would have also 10 wings.

I dont get why it is hard to understand. Ishibumi does not need to describe everything we dont understand, or we dont want to understand.

Dulio is better at long range, he is weaker at close range like he said, but being weaker doesn't mean that a punch of a High Class devil would defeat him?

His close range being weaker does not mean he is garbage. It just mean that he is not as good in close combat that at long range. Since at long range he could fight equal to a top 10 being, then at close range it will be much harder and being equal to Issei is not strange at all.

An other reason which it is not stange, it is because he has a great amount and abnormal of aura which he uses in his fists to fight Issei, it is not like he fought with naked hands.


If there is something that you consider that does not make sense or need some clarification from the author, then it might mean that you over see something that was wrong but it is hard to accept.

IMO, Ishibumi has not made mistake in his power level in all the volumes, I can see he has make a great work to not contradict himself.

@dragonosman Then why did this happen:

Spoiler for Volume 4:

The magic power given off by Cattleya’s body swelled up, and gave off an ominous aura. A mass that was near that of Sirzechs-sama and Serafall-sama…Just what on earth was that snake she just swallowed…?

Azazel fired countless spears of light at her, but they easily vanished just by Cattleya calmly moving her right hand sideways. Such power!

Like, there is no more clear evidence than this. Cattleya got a power near, not equal, near Sirzechs and Serafall and Azazel attacks were easily deflected. Azazel did not need Fafnir to be superior than Cattleya or Creuserry, he needed it otherwise he will lose since he is not at Satan Class.


If Angels limit was Satan Class, then in the war God of Bible was not that much needed to fight the Maou since they is 10 Seraphs and that would be enough to fight the Yondai Maou. Seraphs and Grimori Leaders are near Satan Class, they are Ultimate Class but not Satan Class.

I mean, 10 Seraphs at Satan Class would be enough to oppose any threat, even Indra is equal to 4 Maou. This just does not make sense. Fighting Barakiel, like I said, does not make Issei Satan Class. He did have an upgrade and I know that, but no where is said to be Satan Class.

[Lord Kai]

Originally Posted by kiiro94

Yes, but Cao Cao is a human and Dulio is an Angel. A huge difference. No need to compare. We dont need to know if he has a great power of light to use in spears.

We know he has an enormous and abnormal aura. That already shows how strong he is. His longinus did not make him have 10 wings, otherwise Issei would have also 10 wings.

I dont get why it is hard to understand. Ishibumi does not need to describe everything we dont understand, or we dont want to understand.

Dulio is better at long range, he is weaker at close range like he said, but being weaker doesn't mean that a punch of a High Class devil would defeat him?

His close range being weaker does not mean he is garbage. It just mean that he is not as good in close combat that at long range. Since at long range he could fight equal to a top 10 being, then at close range it will be much harder and being equal to Issei is not strange at all.

An other reason which it is not stange, it is because he has a great amount and abnormal of aura which he uses in his fists to fight Issei, it is not like he fought with naked hands.


If there is something that you consider that does not make sense or need some clarification from the author, then it might mean that you over see something that was wrong but it is hard to accept.

IMO, Ishibumi has not made mistake in his power level in all the volumes, I can see he has make a great work to not contradict himself.

@dragonosman Then why did this happen:

Spoiler for Volume 4:

The magic power given off by Cattleya’s body swelled up, and gave off an ominous aura. A mass that was near that of Sirzechs-sama and Serafall-sama…Just what on earth was that snake she just swallowed…?

Azazel fired countless spears of light at her, but they easily vanished just by Cattleya calmly moving her right hand sideways. Such power!

Like, there is no more clear evidence than this. Cattleya got a power near, not equal, near Sirzechs and Serafall and Azazel attacks were easily deflected. Azazel did not need Fafnir to be superior than Cattleya or Creuserry, he needed it otherwise he will lose since he is not at Satan Class.


If Angels limit was Satan Class, then in the war God of Bible was not that much needed to fight the Maou since they is 10 Seraphs and that would be enough to fight the Yondai Maou. Seraphs and Grimori Leaders are near Satan Class, they are Ultimate Class but not Satan Class.

I mean, 10 Seraphs at Satan Class would be enough to oppose any threat, even Indra is equal to 4 Maou. This just does not make sense. Fighting Barakiel, like I said, does not make Issei Satan Class. He did have an upgrade and I know that, but no where is said to be Satan Class.

The number of wings don't increase for devils. The only ones who have multiple sets of wings are those of Lucifer bloodline like Vali and Rizevim.

[Parry999]

It heavily implied more wings means stronger angel though. By the way how strong even is a seraph?

[DragonOsman]

Even if it does, that's for Angels and not for Devils.

[kiiro94]

Originally Posted by Lord Kai

The number of wings don't increase for devils. The only ones who have multiple sets of wings are those of Lucifer bloodline like Vali and Rizevim.

That is what we have seen until now. Irina has 2 pair of wings, she has access to more weapons of Heaven. This showed that the number of wings did not show power but instead a position in heaven. So even Dulio having 10 wings does not mean he is weaker or stronger than a Seraph, I knew this but I did not bring it up

Volume 17

“Irina, did the number of your Angel wings increase?”

When I said that, Irina says it boastfully while putting forward her chest.

“Ufufu, I received a call this morning from Heaven that my level as an Angel increased! And when I made my wings appear, this was what I got! Oh my, this surely must be a blessing bestowed to me from Michael-sama who watched over my daily prayers!”

Irina is making a prayer gesture while having her eyes sparkle.

I see, so Irina’s rank as an Angel increased huh. Well, if I think about it, we continuously had fierce battles. If we think about it properly, no one can complain if her rank rose. At this point, she made that much achievement and she also happens to be Michael-san’s Ace after all.

So maybe having 12 wing for a Devil show his position. Sirzechs did said that the underworld needed the Lucifer. Lucifer is an absolute existence for Devils, they are the true kin for the throne to Gober the devils. The wings might show that Rizevim is the true leader. Vali has 10 wings maybe since he is half lucifer.

[aw454wtr]

Originally Posted by Parry999

It heavily implied more wings means stronger angel though. By the way how strong even is a seraph?

More wings mean higher position in heaven heirachy, not 100% sure if it means more power

[Lord Kai]

Originally Posted by kiiro94

That is what we have seen until now. Irina has 2 pair of wings, she has access to more weapons of Heaven. This showed that the number of wings did not show power but instead a position in heaven. So even Dulio having 10 wings does not mean he is weaker or stronger than a Seraph, I knew this but I did not bring it up

Volume 17



So maybe having 12 wing for a Devil show his position. Sirzechs did said that the underworld needed the Lucifer. Lucifer is an absolute existence for Devils, they are the true kin for the throne to Gober the devils. The wings might show that Rizevim is the true leader. Vali has 10 wings maybe since he is half lucifer.

The problem is no devil besides of Lucifer bloodine have multiple sets of wings. The descendants of the original Maou like Shalba don't have multiple sets of wings. Vali has no rank which proves that only those with the Lucifer bloodline have multiple set of wings.

[kiiro94]

Originally Posted by Lord Kai

The problem is no devil besides of Lucifer bloodine have multiple sets of wings. The descendants of the original Maou like Shalba don't have multiple sets of wings. Vali has no rank which proves that only those with the Lucifer bloodline have multiple set of wings.

That is what I said, for devils it shows the lucifer bloodline, the real lider of devils.

[Lucidrago]

Dulio has 10 wings and it was stated that's the same number of wings a Seraph has.

Michael, Gabriel, and Metatron have 12 wings. Azazel has 12 wings. Barakiel has 10 wings. Kokabiel has 10 wings.

Devils don't have their number of wings denote their rank as the only devils that have more than 2 wings are Vali and Rizevim. And we're not sure how many wings Vali has originally. We just know that he has 12 wings when using DxD L.

Let's just say Seraph-level is somewhere around Maou-level.

Anyone with 12 wings though is Maou-class in my eyes.

@Osman I'm waiting until the volume is translated.

[kiiro94]

That is what happens. In my eyes?

I showed clear evidence. For that reason, when something contradicts your beliefs you cant accept the reality therefore asume everything is wrong and asume Ishibumi is doing shitty job.

And it was already stated that Vali has 8 wings.

Spoiler for Volume 3 and 4:

The eight wings of light growing from the back were giving out a divine glow in the dark night. But I was familiar with the person covered in white armour. It had a different shape and colour, but it was similar…… It was identical to the “Boosted Gear Scale-mail”.

“I’m a descendent of the previous generation’s Maou Lucifer who died. However, I’m a child of mixed blood born from a father who was the old Maou’s grandson and a human mother. —I obtained the [Vanishing Dragon]’s Sacred Gear because I’m half-human. It was just by chance. However, I, who is a true blood relative of Lucifer and is also the [Vanishing Dragon], was born. If there really is such a thing as fate and miracles, I may be that. —Just joking.”

As he said that, several folds of devil wings grew from his back along with his wings of light.

[Lucidrago]

That's what I said. We're not sure how many DEVIL wings Vali has originally (when not using DxD L). Vali has 8 wings of light. You know the wings of light that Divine Dividing takes the form of?

I just said that anyone with 12 wings is Maou-class in my eyes. You acted like I said they're stronger than the original Maou or something like that. Catarea drank Ophis' snake and her demonic power boosted to the level of the original Leviathan. And she blew away Azazel's attack with a wave of her hand. That implies her power when using Ophis' snake is greater than Azazel's. And her power was at the level of the original Leviathan at that moment. Even if Azazel wasn't as powerful as her doesn't mean he wasn't Maou-class.