Mahouka Koukou no Rettousei LN - Q&A/Discussion about Magic & Technology

[Twi]

Originally Posted by mashingan

CMIIW, the engraving magic is type of "very" specialized CAD. Specialized CAD for modern magic usually be able to store to 9 activation sequences. Generalized able to 99, while engraving magic only be able to store one activation sequence.
The users are usually combat magicians or ancient magicians since they don't need the various way to use magic except to defeat the enemy.

*Looks at techno-babble for a few minutes*

So... it's basically a single spell engraved on an object?

[mashingan]

^ cmiiw, basically yes, Isn't the cloak function different between Mikihiko's cloak and Leo's?
Well, afair, in 9SC competition that summer, the engraved spell just to fortify their magic (e.g. Leo's signature magic was fortification magic so he used cloak as fortified shield while Mikihiko's magic related to pushion modification and portrayed the physical dimension as several entity so he was using illusion technique).

This is just my thought, I think ancient magic users are usually adept at pushion related spell instead of psion related.
In literal term, pushion is spiritual particle (霊子) while psion is thought particle (思子).
IMO, spirit and thought is closely related but not sure where to draw the line between those two.

[Medivh]

I don't think we can definitively say that Miyuki is stronger than Lina. Lina has already gone through 2 fights before miyuki. Fatigue would have played a part in her losing the fight.

Masaki rupture would probably be able to go through Miyuki ZI. Like I said, masaki has no problem in dealing with natural DF with rupture. Magic power between masaki and miyuki does not have that big of a difference. This was stated in v18 when they were practising together.

Spoiler:

颜色的鲜艳度和深雪不相伯仲。将辉对于自己的魔法力不比深雪差这点感到满足。

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by Twi

*Looks at techno-babble for a few minutes*

So... it's basically a single spell engraved on an object?

Yep, it use magical geometry (I kind wish we had more course description instead of transport ones) to imprint a spell that then just require psion to activate. Leo said it was inefficient because the user would run out of juice to keep the spell going. Erika just push psion in it right before impact to activate the engraved spell to avoid that problem.

I'm not sure about it only allowing for one spell though. Miki's fan allow him to cast all sort of things. Erika's Mizuchimaru has both reinforcement and inertia cancel, while her wakizashi had reinforcements and she did wind attacks with it against the 3rd Division in the Visitor's arc. And there is her PAM too (unless it is an innate ability). She was never mentioned to have a generalized device. Considering her magical aptitude, I really doubt she would be casting most of her spells without a CAD.

[Zeborg]

Originally Posted by Medivh

I don't think we can definitively say that Miyuki is stronger than Lina. Lina has already gone through 2 fights before miyuki. Fatigue would have played a part in her losing the fight.

Masaki rupture would probably be able to go through Miyuki ZI. Like I said, masaki has no problem in dealing with natural DF with rupture. Magic power between masaki and miyuki does not have that big of a difference. This was stated in v18 when they were practising together.

Spoiler:

颜色的鲜艳度和深雪不相伯仲。将辉对于自己的魔法力不比深雪差这点感到满足。

Of course we can. Miyuki easily won in their duel. To claim otherwise is not being objective, it was a serious match. You would have to wait for the rematch.
A more reasonable claim to make is to say that their power levels are a lot closer than the duel would indicate. In which case I would agree.

I'm not really sure how seriously I want to even try to answer to this fatigue argument. Nothing happens in the fight that indicates that fatigue has any effect on Lina. Lets not pretend that it would have gone any differently, because of something as inconsequential as this.

I already made 2 long posts about this. Dealing with the natural DF of a normal traditional magician, isn't even a feat. The only reason it was noteworthy was because Rupture couldn't instantly do it, which is extremely surprising. If the translation is correct, that is.

They released a data sheet of the magical abilities of some of the cast. And like I said, Masaki ranks either 1 or 2 ranks lower than Miyuki. I would check, but I don't really remember where I read it.

Originally Posted by mashingan

I think he meant to say that "Miyuki was less skilled in fine-precision control of high output magic". It because her limiting power was halved for sealing/blocking Tatsuya magic calculation area. Because of that too, it's better to Miyuki just to use magics that don't involve excessive control, that's way it's reversely easier for Miyuki to invoke AoE magics instead of one-by-one target.
Here's the post that contained the Q&A about the seal and Miyuki's limiting power.

CMIIW, the engraving magic is type of "very" specialized CAD. Specialized CAD for modern magic usually be able to store to 9 activation sequences. Generalized able to 99, while engraving magic only be able to store one activation sequence.
The users are usually combat magicians or ancient magicians since they don't need the various way to use magic except to defeat the enemy.

If he means that the control ability of Miyuki is hampered by the seal, then it did not come across well. And I've been talking about an unsealed Miyuki anyway. In the first place, we were talking about targeting a single barrier. Not multi targeting, which Miyuki is also good at by the way.
Targeting a single barrier is effortless for any magician. This is even below the bare minimum that is required to be even considered a magician.

I think it would be a lot simpler for Miyuki to use single target magic actually. AoE magic in general is more difficult to control.

[Medivh]

Fatigue did play a part.

Adding to that however Lina had already fought the vampire and then Tatsuya, making this her third consecutive battle.

Even though she herself was not aware of symptoms, fatigue was already setting in.

With her opponent holding the advantage and herself handicapped, the result was clear.

Like I stated before, rupture has no problem with natural DF. If you mean the hexagon, they have the same score in magic practical skills.

[Zeborg]

Originally Posted by Medivh

Fatigue did play a part.

Like I stated before, rupture has no problem with natural DF.

This is why I said what I said. "Nothing happens in the fight that indicates that fatigue has any effect on Lina". Her movement was fine, her magic casting was on point, her overall strategy was good.
These are not the reasons why she lost. So, when you're saying she was "fatigued", which she was. There has to be something substantial to point to, if you're going to use it as a reason or an excuse.
For example; Lina's movement is sluggish because of fatigue and she slips, and gets blown up. This is a scenario you can point to and say, aha well she was fatigued, and this is the reason she lost.
Nothing like that happens. We know she's fatigued, but it doesn't have any bearing on the result of the duel, and it is not the reason she loses. So it is not relevant.
You know as well as I do that this is nitpicking.

You say something and the translation says something else. There is also difference between Japanese and Chinese. It's all the same. Someone needs to translate it properly to confirm anything, your word is not inherently more believable than the translators. Probably less so. This is nothing personal. It's just that mistranslations get thrown out in Mahouka all the time. But it is true that it does not make much sense as it is. Either the translation about Minoru not having higher IS is wrong, and it actually is higher, or then the quote means to say that Masaki has to take some time to pierce through DF with anything but Rupture.
But if you can translate, why not join the translator team? They could use help, last I checked.

No, it's not the hexagon.

[Medivh]

Originally Posted by Zeborg

the quote means to say that Masaki has to take some time to pierce through DF with anything but Rupture.

This was what it meant in Chinese. You are right that translation may be wrong but I tend to believe Chinese TL.

Fatigue was part of the reason why muspelheim overwelmingly lost to niflheim.

[Echizen777]

I accidentally deleted my post so I will just talk briefly.

Tatsuya is obviously lacking in many areas, he never said that Miyuki is stronger than him. He is called the strongest Yotsuba and Katsushige, despite thinking that he is stronger than Miyuki, doesn't share the same opinion when it's about Tatsuya. Tatsuya and Maya's casting speed are about the same accodring to volume 18, he shattered it but it works by attacking with multiple ray of lights, he might have not been able to stop all the rays in time, that's all it says. Your analogy with Masaki doesn't work. Tatsuya doesn't have to wait for a magic to be complete because he can detect early signs of activation better than anyone and cancel magics before it's over for that reason, he cancelled Lina's magic thrice despite their speed being comparable and he used it against Masaki. Katsuto has a similar ability demonstrated in volume 7.

Miyuki, Lina and Minoru have equal MP and they have their different talents where they excel or not. More importantly they come from two different labs. Katsuto is the strongest Juumonji and is CM is used for more than physical obstacles, it's the pinnacle of CM. Nothing implies that Miyuki is better at AOE defense because her magic is tactical, all it means is that her magic is suited to attack a mass of enemies. Saying that Rupture is the weakest is extremely biased, Cocytus doesn't go through everything and Parade doesn't even have attack power, it's still a A rank and instant killing magic, you are ignoring many variables in combat too. The only Decomposition magics above are Baryon Lance and Trident. Decomposition = Cocytus only in the sense that they are their innate magics, anything else you are implying is false. Miyuki and Mayumi destroying the tanks at the same time means their speed is about the same, and Miyuki said Minoru and Mayumi's speed were like that. Saying that Minoru is faster just because he has the highest MP is ridiculous. I don't know about the gap between Lina and Miyuki's speed but it is big enough to clearly state that Lina is faster. Her casting speed rivals Tatsuya's speed for Decomposition so he is definitely faster than Miyuki. Phalanx generates instantly 10 layers so your reasoning is flawed, just because Tatsuya can destroy a barrier doesn't mean that Miyuki's IS is above. Lina, who has equal talent would have died multicasting when she was using Muspelheim when the Saegusa twins can manage both Heated Turbulence and Suffocating Turbulence at once, Miyuki is not better at everything else just because she has the highest MP, they come from different labs.

Direct targeting magics are magics like Mist Dispersion, Rupture or simple psion bullet spells. Just like Miyuki excels at AOE but is less good for these kind of spells, Lina is better at them but less good at AOE, it's not complicated. It's been stated in volume 6 and 9, even the description of her magic says that she is better at targeting an area.

Miyuki has never been stated to be stronger than Lina, they are always called equals. Miyuki's first attack was not AOE and she hastened it, attacking by surprise even and using Lina's naivety and underestimation of her, Lina was also tired and faced Miyuki with AOE magic. After this attack everything went according to her plan. Parade can also be used to fake color, heat, position, sound and shape. It can be used very well even against an AOE specialist. Yakumo lured Tatsuya into thinking he was thirty yards away from him even though he was next to him.

Lets' say that Miyuki can nullify any kind of magic of any magicians. It will only be possible with her full powered ZI. Going on the offensive would lower both her offense and defense. If you think Lina has a chance of attacking her then Masaki has too, especially since you admitted than he and Minoru are close in IS. Nothing confirms that Masaki si faster than her but I believe the feats speak for themselves. If you think using a specialized CAD is so much f an advantage anyway Masaki definitely has the edge with his Rupture, he is also able to use a simple magic like Air Bullet at a lethal level despite it being a Convergence type, he has more than enough power. Plus he is a bombardment expert(don't tell me you think Miyuki is better than him at it too because there is no quote) so it'd be even more complicated for her. She has the highest Mp but again MP is different from CP. I don't see how she is superior to he or Katsuto in combat. Even Shizuku who has a very high IS for a magician not form the 28 families pierced her defense with Phonon Maser when she was not at full power, you re clearly overestimating Miyuki and her defense.

[Zeborg]

Originally Posted by Echizen777

I accidentally deleted my post so I will just talk briefly.

Tatsuya is obviously lacking in many areas, he never said that Miyuki is stronger than him. He is called the strongest Yotsuba and Katsushige, despite thinking that he is stronger than Miyuki, doesn't share the same opinion when it's about Tatsuya. Tatsuya and Maya's casting speed are about the same accodring to volume 18, he shattered it but it works by attacking with multiple ray of lights, he might have not been able to stop all the rays in time, that's all it says. Your analogy with Masaki doesn't work. Tatsuya doesn't have to wait for a magic to be complete because he can detect early signs of activation better than anyone and cancel magics before it's over for that reason, he cancelled Lina's magic thrice despite their speed being comparable and he used it against Masaki. Katsuto has a similar ability demonstrated in volume 7.

Since he was using Gram dispersion, Tatsuya would have been targeting them all at once. His upper limit was 32 objects when he was targeting stationary objects, if I recall. This comes up in his training with Yakumo.
And since you said that according to volume 18 their casting speeds are about the same like I theorized, the reason he doesn't cancel it in time is the delay it takes to notice and analyze the magic.
Yes, of course Tatsuya doesn't wait for the magic to complete. That would make either of the GD's very weak. Because of ES, he can detect the magic after it starts getting cast. But there's still a clear delay when you're comparing it to just casting Decomposition to kill. I mean these are just the mechanics of magic in Mahouka, there isn't any point in arguing about it. The fact is that, in order to use Gram Demolition, or Gram Dispersion, Tatsuya has to wait for the opponent to start their magic. Now, of course Tatsuya is able to catch onto this very early on, but he is clearly reacting to what the opponent is doing, instead of making the initiative. For GD to work you have to have a higher cast speed, again, just look at the example with MS.

Miyuki, Lina and Minoru have equal MP and they have their different talents where they excel or not. More importantly they come from two different labs. Katsuto is the strongest Juumonji and is CM is used for more than physical obstacles, it's the pinnacle of CM. Nothing implies that Miyuki is better at AOE defense because her magic is tactical, all it means is that her magic is suited to attack a mass of enemies. Saying that Rupture is the weakest is extremely biased, Cocytus doesn't go through everything and Parade doesn't even have attack power, it's still a A rank and instant killing magic, you are ignoring many variables in combat too. The only Decomposition magics above are Baryon Lance and Trident. Decomposition = Cocytus only in the sense that they are their innate magics, anything else you are implying is false. Miyuki and Mayumi destroying the tanks at the same time means their speed is about the same, and Miyuki said Minoru and Mayumi's speed were like that. Saying that Minoru is faster just because he has the highest MP is ridiculous. I don't know about the gap between Lina and Miyuki's speed but it is big enough to clearly state that Lina is faster. Her casting speed rivals Tatsuya's speed for Decomposition so he is definitely faster than Miyuki. Phalanx generates instantly 10 layers so your reasoning is flawed, just because Tatsuya can destroy a barrier doesn't mean that Miyuki's IS is above. Lina, who has equal talent would have died multicasting when she was using Muspelheim when the Saegusa twins can manage both Heated Turbulence and Suffocating Turbulence at once, Miyuki is not better at everything else just because she has the highest MP, they come from different labs.

Well, the fact that Miyuki has tactical AoE defense magic and Katsuto doesn't, sort of does imply exactly that.
We already had a long conversation about Cocytus and MI magic, on this thread. You can go read through it again if you want to, but it isn't worth bringing it up again. We concluded that Cocytus does go through everything and it is AoE. So it's ridiculously strong.
Rupture is still strong magic overall, it's just not as powerful as the other unique magics. Parade has more versatility and so does Phalanx, it's not just about attack power. Decomposition would be pretty weak too without ES, which is what allows Tatsuya to counter magic. If you just think about it; there are many, many ways to kill magicians and normal combatants, it doesn't have to be something like rupture. It's much harder to have such a strong defense against many types of magicians and situations, like what Phalanx and Parade offer. This is not biased, you simply want it to be better than it is. Just think about how unextraordinary Decomposition would be without ES, Rupture is below that in terms of versatility, and Masaki's IS is lower. Decomposition is nowhere near Cocytus. None of the unique magics here are as powerful as that.
Byron Lance and Trident aren't really Decomposition. Trident is the CAD Tatsuya uses, it's not magic. And Byron lance is just applying Decomposition on something else (The bayonet on the gun) and shooting out the Byron particles towards whatever the target is and this happens under the FAE law. Decomposition in a vacuum, is way weaker then Cocytus, but it's also weaker then Parade and Phalanx, it's still a bit stronger than Rupture because it has the increased versatility of targeting more than just liquids, plus Tatsuya has a higher IS.

Minoru has a clearly higher MP than she does, so it's a logical conclusion. You're actually being ridiculous by saying it's ridiculous. We already went over the definition of Magic power. So you should know better. Miyuki and Mayumi destroying a tank as fast doesn't mean anything, it really doesn't. This is clutching for straws. I don't even remember this quote, you're talking about. Was it in Yokohama? Regardless, there are so many more variables that come into play there besides casting speed, it wasn't a contest. Lina and Miyuki destroying parasites at the same time isn't evidence that they're as fast either.
Their magic powers were said to be pretty close to each other, but with Lina simply having the edge in speed, and Miyuki having the edge in IS, no more no less. So in any case, it won't be a large difference, and this is with normal magic.
Again, I explained this to you. Is it twice now? Tatsuya's speed for Decomposition is not comparable to Miyuki casting regular magic. Tatsuya's speed with Decomposition = Cocytus. If you are talking about cast speeds, you have to separate CAD's and innate magic, or you are being extremely disingenuous. Miyuki casting Cocytus is obviously faster than her casting normal magic, the same would go for Tatsuya if he had the capacity in his natural MCA. So the comparison you're making here is false. Miyuki with Cocytus is at least as fast as Lina is with her regular magic.

I know how Phalanx works. Do you even understand the point that I'm making here? The amount of barriers Phalanx has, is of no consequence. And, yes if Tatsuya has the IS to destroy Katsuto's barriers you better believe that Miyuki has the IS to destroy them too.

Neutralizing magic required interference power exceeding that of the
magic being neutralized.

Among the currently living Magicians, even the Zone Interference
belonging to one of the very best, Miyuki, had been shaken.

After a quick look, this was the first quote I found, but there are many more in the book that talk about Miyuki's IS or ZI superlatively. Tatsuya has an extremely high IS with his natural MCA, but Miyuki should by all accounts have an even greater one.

The thing with Miyuki is that she's artificially enhanced, like I said. She has been modified by magic and genetic manipulation. The standards don't apply.
When you're talking about the 10MC having specialties. How do you think that those came to be? You guessed it, by genetic manipulation and magic. All of the 10MC, come from artificially modified magicians, just like what Miyuki is. Except that Miyuki is the Yotsuba masterpiece. Which means that she should be superior. The talents she has, should not be held to common standards. It doesn't make sense. You can think of it as Miyuki coming from the Miyuki lab + she's a Yotsuba, so she has those talents too.

Direct targeting magics are magics like Mist Dispersion, Rupture or simple psion bullet spells. Just like Miyuki excels at AOE but is less good for these kind of spells, Lina is better at them but less good at AOE, it's not complicated. It's been stated in volume 6 and 9, even the description of her magic says that she is better at targeting an area.

You are drawing lines where there aren't any. Miyuki has been said to be at the highest level in any aspect of magic. The fact that she is extraordinarily good at AoE, doesn't mean that she is worse than someone who uses different types of spells. Again, if you have a proper quote saying this, I will have no problem with it. But you have to keep it honest. Because the book only shows us Miyuki be extremely good at all magics.

Miyuki has never been stated to be stronger than Lina, they are always called equals. Miyuki's first attack was not AOE and she hastened it, attacking by surprise even and using Lina's naivety and underestimation of her, Lina was also tired and faced Miyuki with AOE magic. After this attack everything went according to her plan. Parade can also be used to fake color, heat, position, sound and shape. It can be used very well even against an AOE specialist. Yakumo lured Tatsuya into thinking he was thirty yards away from him even though he was next to him.

Why would you need a statement for it? Miyuki easily beat Lina, in a serious 1v1 duel. You are being childish. You don't need a statement when it's clearly shown to you. You will have to deal with this fact until there's a rematch. For now Miyuki is clearly stronger.

Lets' say that Miyuki can nullify any kind of magic of any magicians. It will only be possible with her full powered ZI. Going on the offensive would lower both her offense and defense. If you think Lina has a chance of attacking her then Masaki has too, especially since you admitted than he and Minoru are close in IS. Nothing confirms that Masaki si faster than her but I believe the feats speak for themselves. If you think using a specialized CAD is so much f an advantage anyway Masaki definitely has the edge with his Rupture, he is also able to use a simple magic like Air Bullet at a lethal level despite it being a Convergence type, he has more than enough power. Plus he is a bombardment expert(don't tell me you think Miyuki is better than him at it too because there is no quote) so it'd be even more complicated for her. She has the highest Mp but again MP is different from CP. I don't see how she is superior to he or Katsuto in combat. Even Shizuku who has a very high IS for a magician not form the 28 families pierced her defense with Phonon Maser when she was not at full power, you re clearly overestimating Miyuki and her defense.

I don't know what you're saying. Lina doesn't have a chance of attacking Miyuki, and she knows this in their duel and even counts on it. In our previous discussion, I said that the only direct magic she can use that has a chance to pierce the ZI is HMB, but it's not really a direct target magic. It's a beam that shoots out. Also there are still minor differences even if you're in the same MP category like Lina and Miyuki are. Masaki has no feats that imply he's faster than Miyuki. I'd be willing to buy that he's faster using his innate magic with a specialized CAD than Miyuki is using normal magic, this sounds perfectly reasonable. Since, he was able to use it almost instantaneously against Zhou. So he would get the initiative. But as seen with the duel against Lina, Miyuki is able to switch in and out of defense seemingly effortlessly. And Masaki doesn't have nearly as great of a defensive prowess. And at the end of the day it's very difficult to imagine him finding a way of conjuring up credible threats to Miyuki, between her ZI and Deceleration Zone and being able to defend against Miyuki. I'm assuming Miyuki isn't using Cocytus either. Like I said, even in a scenario where Miyuki did nothing but defend which would never happen in reality, she has a lot larger of a psion reserve and she is spending a lot less. So the one to tap out would be Masaki.

Masaki is at his strongest taking out many magicians that are a bit weaker than him in terms of IS.

Against Katsuto Miyuki would really want to use Cocytus to get through Phalanx. But it would be interesting to see Katsuto vs Miyuki with Cocytus being banned. Miyuki would be at a disadvantage. But it's still hard to picture her losing.

At 9SC. Miyuki is actually using data fortification instead of ZI, plus she's obviously still sealed. In any case, Shizuku never does actually pierce the fortification. What happens is that, she is able to influence the temperature by heating the air, which causes Miyuki's blocks to momentarily melt.

[Echizen777]

Originally Posted by Zeborg

Since he was using Gram dispersion, Tatsuya would have been targeting them all at once. His upper limit was 32 objects when he was targeting stationary objects, if I recall. This comes up in his training with Yakumo.
And since you said that according to volume 18 their casting speeds are about the same like I theorized, the reason he doesn't cancel it in time is the delay it takes to notice and analyze the magic.
Yes, of course Tatsuya doesn't wait for the magic to complete. That would make either of the GD's very weak. Because of ES, he can detect the magic after it starts getting cast. But there's still a clear delay when you're comparing it to just casting Decomposition to kill. I mean these are just the mechanics of magic in Mahouka, there isn't any point in arguing about it. The fact is that, in order to use Gram Demolition, or Gram Dispersion, Tatsuya has to wait for the opponent to start their magic. Now, of course Tatsuya is able to catch onto this very early on, but he is clearly reacting to what the opponent is doing, instead of making the initiative. For GD to work you have to have a higher cast speed, again, just look at the example with MS.

This is Gram Dispersion's description

Spoiler for Gram Dispersion:

Magic Dissolution (Gram Dispersion)This magic takes a Magic Ritual and
decomposes it into a group of Psion particles without a meaningful
structure. Due to the nature of a Magic Ritual acting on the information of
an object accompanying a phenomenon, if the information has not been
exposed, it is impossible to interfere with the magic. On the other hand, if
the Magic Ritual is decomposed, the phenomenon will not occur. To
analyze the magic before the magic is activated in the present age where
invocation takes a fraction of a second requires the ability to [See] and
analyze the magic structure. Since the user is typically required to
understand the magic being used beforehand, it is thought utilization of this
magic is impossible.

The lines in bold are exactly the reason why he is the only one able to do this, Tatsuya is always able to read the sequences, the matter is if he'll have enough time to launch his CM, and if his magic will be strong enough to cancel it. And in the end, he cancelled that magic, the Night shattered, it's just that one of the rays injured him. There are no sequences for each rays. He nullified the magic but didn't manage to stop all the rays which had already brought a physical phenomena, strictly in terms of magic, he nullified MS.

Spoiler for Quote:

The world turned to 'Night'.
It was not mere darkness.
Floating within the darkness, shone a brilliant sea of stars.
The roof of the drawing room became a moonless, starlit night sky.
The stars flowed, becoming rays of light,
—And the scent of blood suddenly filled the room.
In the next moment,
Without a sound,
That indoor 'Night' shattered.
Revealed within was the tableau of the aunt and nephew, still staring at
each other without change.
However the sense of tension which had once surged between them, had
faded with the collapse of 'Night'.

To begin with, Tatsuya's limit at multi targeting is 24, not 32 or 36 and all we know about MS is that it creates countless ball of lights, it's a laser shower, it might very well be above 40 or 50.

Spoiler for Quote:

As Yakumo's face relaxed to hide his "so you know" reaction, Miyuki
stepped between the two.
"Speaking of which, Onii-sama, when could you handle 36 targets at the
same time?"
These words weren't out of concern for her brother but more because she
couldn't contain her excitement.
"I remember that 24 was your limit three months ago."
Miyuki was referring to the number of targets that could be sniped by
magic at the same time. Even though the Specialized CAD was shaped
like a handgun, that did not mean the magic was fired from the muzzle. If
this was a Generalized CAD, it might not even be in the shape of a gun.
Modern magic in the form of the Four Great Systems and Eight Major
Types relied on Eidos manipulation of the chosen target rather than using
magic bullets to shoot at a target. Thus, so long as one could focus on the
targeted phenomenon, it was possible to target multiple instances of the
same phenomenon.
To accomplish this, each of the replicated targets needed to be defined
and considered simultaneously.
Rather than lumping all the targets together and identifying all the
phenomena together and changing them at once, magic needed to be
applied to each individual target, so it was necessary to identify the subtle
differences between each of them.
If the number of the targets was only one digit, then anyone could
accomplish this with sufficient training. Anything above that was the realm
where qualities other than magic were required, as even adding one target
became incredibly difficult.
Miyuki's eyes shone brilliantly. Needless to say, this was her bro-con
personality on full throttle.
However, Tatsuya only laughed and shook his head at his sister's
question.
"No, although this opponent does actually retaliate, it is more like they
were set to wait to retaliate. In live combat without any breaks in between,
currently 24 is already my limit."

He doesn't notice the magic after it's cast he does even before it's cast, his ES is like a sort of precognition. He doesn't need to be faster, his casting speed is already extremely high and he ready to act before the magic is complete. Which is why I mentioned Lina. We already know that her casting speed rivals Decomposition, he still cancelled her magic thrice when they met in volume 9.

Spoiler for Quote:

The masked Magician raised her left hand at Tatsuya. Like a seal, the
premonition of magic invocation was already at her fingertips in an instant.
However, that premonition faded away as the world was being overwritten.
Those golden pupils were greatly shaken.
Three times she attempted to activate different sorts of magic, and three
times they were blown away.

Basically, there is no AS Tatsuya can't read. If he is able to use Gram Dispersion on it it means he has already read it. He cancelled MS and he cancelled Lina's magic but the physical changes brought by magic can't be stopped. It's just like when he cancelled Niflheim and Muspelheim

Spoiler for Quote:

His 'Gram Dispersion' dispelled both Miyuki's 'Niflheim' and Lina's
'Muspelheim' at the exact same time.
The cold and hot air rapidly mixed, creating a gale which would cause both
frostbite and burns. Bracing himself for the severe pain he was sure was
incoming, the storm of sheer cold and scorching heat was blocked right
before him by an invisible wall.
"Onii-sama! That was far too reckless!"
Her face pale, Miyuki came running up.
Stunned, Lina could only stare.
For those two, protecting themselves from the thermal aftermath was a
piece of cake regardless of fatigue. However, that sort of thing was
impossible for Tatsuya. It was at times like these that Tatsuya, who looked
with indifference on his own talents, was somewhat envious of the skills of
ordinary magicians.

Well, the fact that Miyuki has tactical AoE defense magic and Katsuto doesn't, sort of does imply exactly that.

Miyuki's magic is called tactical and I explained what it means, there has been no clear description of Katsuto's magic and we know that Juumonjis are specialized at AOE defense so it implies nothing, it's just wishful thinking on your part.

We already had a long conversation about Cocytus and MI magic, on this thread. You can go read through it again if you want to, but it isn't worth bringing it up again. We concluded that Cocytus does go through everything and it is AoE. So it's ridiculously strong.

We concluded nothing, I even quoted examples of MI magic being countered that you refused to acknowledge, you didn't even want to acknowledge that Poisoned Bees was a MI magic. Also, Cocytus's range is unknown but it most likely is not an AOE magic considering how she used it so far.

Rupture is still strong magic overall, it's just not as powerful as the other unique magics. Parade has more versatility and so does Phalanx, it's not just about attack power. Decomposition would be pretty weak too without ES, which is what allows Tatsuya to counter magic. If you just think about it; there are many, many ways to kill magicians and normal combatants, it doesn't have to be something like rupture. It's much harder to have such a strong defense against many types of magicians and situations, like what Phalanx and Parade offer. This is not biased, you simply want it to be better than it is. Just think about how unextraordinary Decomposition would be without ES, Rupture is below that in terms of versatility, and Masaki's IS is lower. Decomposition is nowhere near Cocytus. None of the unique magics here are as powerful as that.
Byron Lance and Trident aren't really Decomposition. Trident is the CAD Tatsuya uses, it's not magic. And Byron lance is just applying Decomposition on something else (The bayonet on the gun) and shooting out the Byron particles towards whatever the target is and this happens under the FAE law. Decomposition in a vacuum, is way weaker then Cocytus, but it's also weaker then Parade and Phalanx, it's still a bit stronger than Rupture because it has the increased versatility of targeting more than just liquids, plus Tatsuya has a higher IS.

You are mixing things again, first you talk about power and now it's about versatility and I think this discussion is kinda pointless but you are trying too hard to downplay Rupture. Strictly in terms of attack power, Decomposition, Rupture and Phalanx and Cocytus are A rank Parade has no offensive power. Decomposition, Rupture and Phalanx can be used at non lethal level, Rupture is less versatile because the target needs contain fluids and the AOE version is much weaker but against weaponry and human opponents, it is equal to Mist Dispersion, Phalanx is lethal because the wave of barriers crush the target but with MD and Rupture it is instant, Cocytus can't work on machinery, but it does affect spirits. As I said, the Decomposition magics above it are Trident and Baryon Lance, you are right about Baryon Lance, it is not strictly Decomposition magic but Trident is one, it is both the name of his CAD and a magic, not a single Decomposition magic like MD but a triple Decomposition one, suable only with his Trident CAD of course. You don't know how high Masaki's IS is especially when he is using Rupture, but the fact that it has been directly compared to Minoru means it is very high.

Spoiler for Quote:

Tatsuya never hesitated when destroying such a "device".
Silver Horn Custom, "Trident".
This was Tatsuya's favored instrument, that which brought out the finest of
his magic. Tatsuya squeezed the Trident's trigger.
His original magic, the military secret "Decomposition" activated.
This spell broke the wall's basic components into powder.
By creating a physical hole in the wall that served as medium, he opened a
hole in the "sealed" concept that protected the room from the effect of
external magic.
Tatsuya's "view" of the interior had never been clearer.
When the activated magic was forcibly destroyed, the Generator shook
from the blow.
Under normal circumstances, the Magician wouldn't suffer from the
feedback even if the magic was destroyed.
This was likely a by-product of their inability to consciously terminate or
halt magic by themselves.
He coldly surveyed the scene while his attacks — killing intent did not
falter.
He noticed that one of the Generators released Wide Area Interference to
protect the five members of the brass while the three others adopted Wide
Area Interference to defend themselves.
He squeezed the Trident's trigger.
He set the "Wide Area Interference" from the Generator injured by the
wall's collapse, the "outer shell of the Eidos", and "flesh" as the variables
and plugged them into the Magic Sequence.
The processes for all three magics were completed in a split second with
no time lag in between.
The first process decomposed the target's protective Wide Area
Interference.
The second process decomposed the target's Data Fortification used to
protect the body.
The third process decomposed the flesh down to the atomic level.
The decomposition was so complete that it was no longer recognizable as
a biological entity and left no traces that this was a living being. Proteins
were broken down into hydrogen, oxygen, carbon, nitrogen, and sulfur; the
bones were rendered down to phosphorus, oxygen, and calcium;
everything including blood, the nervous system, stored nutrients, even
waste was decomposed down to the molecules and ions.

Tatsuya is an irregular, he doesn't have the magic sense normal magicians have, he only uses ES and theoretically Decomposition magic is possible. If he had been born with the same talent as the others without ES and with the innate Decomposition magic, he could have used it without ES but, he would have not been able to use Gram Dispersion and it's explained why in the description I quoted above.

Minoru has a clearly higher MP than she does, so it's a logical conclusion. You're actually being ridiculous by saying it's ridiculous. We already went over the definition of Magic power. So you should know better.

He has a higher MP so what? We know it's IS, scale and speed, he has more MP, meaning that he stats are better overall, it doesn't mean that he has a faster casting speed. Mayumi is inferior to him in both MP and CP but she is still very strong and her MP is still very high. The text is clear, their speeds rival each others and it is enough to marvel even Miyuki.

Spoiler for Quote:

An activation sequence started on Minoru's right hand and it was absorbed in a moment. Due to the use of a perfect thought-operated type CAD, no buttons were pressed, which shouldn’t give any surprise once that is known. There should be a special mention of the activation sequence reading speed, which even if it’s estimated conservatively, it should be comparable to the speed of First High School former student council president Saegusa Mayumi.
However, it was still early to be surprised.
Without leaving an interval to be shocked about the activation sequence processing speed, Minoru released his magic.

With one step of his, the ground started emitting light. This was the Dispersion Systematic Magic "Spark". A fundamental technique that forces out electrons from a substance and causes an electric discharge phenomenon. The magic target is usually the air molecules within a narrow range from the substance. Although ionization of this nature is a relatively common phenomenon, it requires a very high interference power because the magic affects the substance structure altering it. Also, ordinary magicians have a low density of ionization, that is, the best they can produce is a small number of molecules within a certain volume of gas in a very limited range from the substance. And then, when the activation was almost fully in sight he fired against the ground surface.
So, this “Spark” has an electrical discharge range broader than the combination magic "Slithering Thunders"35 that the former Club Management Group Chief Hattori Hanzou is strong at. Moreover, as for the degree of difficulty, “Spark” is a better technique, despite Hattori’s magic applying conditions like using a frictional static electricity discharge. (Above Hattori-senpai and comparable to Saegusa-senpai!?) As Miyuki watched the scene, she forgot to cast support magic.

Miyuki and Mayumi destroying a tank as fast doesn't mean anything, it really doesn't. This is clutching for straws. I don't even remember this quote, you're talking about. Was it in Yokohama? Regardless, there are so many more variables that come into play there besides casting speed, it wasn't a contest.

Here is the quote, this is clear that their speed rival each others but you don't want to admit it with your "other variable" claims. Kyouko praised their for a reason, and Kyouko herself is a soldier from the Kudou clan.

Spoiler for Quote:

"Take this!"
"Kanon, using 'Mine Genesis' will cause too much trouble!"
After recovering her wits, Kanon was fired up and ready to unleash her
magic, but was stopped by Isori grabbing her wrist.
With the underground situation uncertain, there was a high possibility that
using surface oscillation magic might worsen the tragedy.
"I won't use that!"
Shaking off Isori's hand, Kanon was about to activate her magic.
Just as she took aim at the targets,
—Not only were they shot to pieces, they were also covered in white frost.
"Ah......"
"As expected of Mayumi and Miyuki. We don't even have time to do
anything."

Standing next to Kanon as she stared blankly, Fujibayashi offered her
praise while chuckling wryly. Mayumi was a little embarrassed whereas
Miyuki only offered a smile of her own as the two of them bowed.

Lina and Miyuki destroying parasites at the same time isn't evidence that they're as fast either.

I don't remember such thing, and if it exists quote it. Miyuki's speed is confirmed to be below Lina's anyway so if she did it at the same time it's because she set up earlier, just like when she attacked Lina first in their duel.

Their magic powers were said to be pretty close to each other, but with Lina simply having the edge in speed, and Miyuki having the edge in IS, no more no less. So in any case, it won't be a large difference, and this is with normal magic.
Again, I explained this to you. Is it twice now? Tatsuya's speed for Decomposition is not comparable to Miyuki casting regular magic. Tatsuya's speed with Decomposition = Cocytus. If you are talking about cast speeds, you have to separate CAD's and innate magic, or you are being extremely disingenuous. Miyuki casting Cocytus is obviously faster than her casting normal magic, the same would go for Tatsuya if he had the capacity in his natural MCA. So the comparison you're making here is false. Miyuki with Cocytus is at least as fast as Lina is with her regular magic.

Lia and Miyuki are not close in MP, they are equals. No one is superior to each other, meaning that the addition of MP, Scale and Speed give exactly the same amount and this is the highest MP possible. Your claim that Decomposition= Cocytus in speed is baseless.
Cocytus and Freezing magic are her specialty, Cocytus is especially called a Soul Freeze magic, there is no reason for Cocytus to be faster than her cast of Niflheim, Inferno or the other freezing magics she uses. Moreover, a CAD doesn't have much importance when you are casting NS or MI magic in terms of speed, which is precisely why I used this to compare Tatsuya and Masaki's speed at the 9SC.

Spoiler for Quote:

While Public Moral Committee members were bestowed with the right to
carry CADs on campus, Tatsuya typically didn't use one while executing
his duties to the committee.
Originally, CADs were tools that shortened the time needed to activate the
Four Systematic Magics. It was only of limited use to other magic, such as
Outer-Systematic Magic, Non-Systematic Magic, Ancient Magic, and
especially if Non-Systematic Magic was only releasing psions to the point
that the lack of a CAD would not seem unnatural at all.
After accidentally revealing his ability to use Gram Demolition during the
Nine Schools Competition, Tatsuya restricted himself to Non-Systematic
Magic outside of class since the start of the second semester. This was
more than enough to handle any trouble, so there was no need to carry a
CAD.

Miyuki set up earlier and hastily completed her Freezing magic against Lina because she knew she was slower. It was not any kind of magic, it was Freezing magic, her specialty. Lina's speed has been established to be equal to Tatsuya's Decomposition when she is not using Parade so Miyuki is undoubtedly slower.

It is as I said previously: Flash Cast>Lina's Parade> Tatsuya's use of his special magics= Lina casting speed for other magics> Miyuki.

Miyuki loses in speed but wins in IS, this is clear.

I know how Phalanx works. Do you even understand the point that I'm making here? The amount of barriers Phalanx has, is of no consequence. And, yes if Tatsuya has the IS to destroy Katsuto's barriers you better believe that Miyuki has the IS to destroy them too.

Tatsuya was unable to destroy all the barriers with Decomposition before Baryon Lance so why would Miyuki be able to?

After a quick look, this was the first quote I found, but there are many more in the book that talk about Miyuki's IS or ZI superlatively. Tatsuya has an extremely high IS with his natural MCA, but Miyuki should by all accounts have an even greater one.

And? Her IS is among the highest, it has not be stated to be the highest or higher than Tatsuya's. One of the reasons why raw MP =/= CP is because IS and other parameters differ depending on the magic used. I already mentioned that her ZI was not able to stop Lina's Parade. Tatsuya and Lina were able to cast magic but they needed to make their IS denser. Tatsuya's IS doesn't have importance when he is nullifying magic, the Gram magics don't rely on IS, they are NS magics even though Gram Dispersion is a subset of Decomposition, any NS magic can be cast even under ZI.

The thing with Miyuki is that she's artificially enhanced, like I said. She has been modified by magic and genetic manipulation. The standards don't apply.
When you're talking about the 10MC having specialties. How do you think that those came to be? You guessed it, by genetic manipulation and magic. All of the 10MC, come from artificially modified magicians, just like what Miyuki is. Except that Miyuki is the Yotsuba masterpiece. Which means that she should be superior. The talents she has, should not be held to common standards. It doesn't make sense. You can think of it as Miyuki coming from the Miyuki lab + she's a Yotsuba, so she has those talents too.

As yous said they are all products of genetic manipulation, Miyuki being a masterpiece has the highest MP but none of the magicians from the 28 families are standard as you said, they are all born gifted at magic. Your reasoning doesn't make sense at all. She can't be better than Ichijou at Dispersion type magic or better than Saegusa and multicasting or Herd Control magic and so on. Even more standards magicians can best her at their specialties, there is no way she can best Honoka at light Oscillation magic and it's even been directly stated that she can't come close to Ayako when it comes to magic used for intelligence and so on. Magicians have all their strong and weak areas and Saegusa are jack of all stats good at anything unless they are exception like Mayumi. As I said already, it's been mentioned than even Lina, who has equal talent to her would have died trying to multicast against Miyuki when she used Muspelheim while the Saegusa twins can handle two high level magics at once without problems.

You are drawing lines where there aren't any. Miyuki has been said to be at the highest level in any aspect of magic. The fact that she is extraordinarily good at AoE, doesn't mean that she is worse than someone who uses different types of spells. Again, if you have a proper quote saying this, I will have no problem with it. But you have to keep it honest. Because the book only shows us Miyuki be extremely good at all magics and even if you think she is, she is far from being the best at all of them, the only magic where type is at the top is Freezing magic, which is, her specialty.

I talked about AOE and single targeting. She is better at AOE so obviously less good at single targeting. Miyuki didn't even use a lot of varied magic, how can you say that she is extremely good at all of them? If she is above average in all of them, it's compared to normal magicians.

Here are quotes

Spoiler for Quote:

Though Miyuki was different than her brother in that she didn't have to hide
her abilities, the campus practice facilities for students and clubs didn't
allow her to bring her full might to bear. In addition, the magic she excelled
in was closer to wide-area magic rather than targeted sniping. Since she
usually lacked a venue or time for shooting practice, Tatsuya pulled her
along saying that "this is an excellent opportunity".

"Miyuki, take it down."
A simple order.
At this time, Miyuki returned to a more serious expression.
"......Understood."
After a brief hesitation, Miyuki nodded.
Miyuki wasn't going to disobey Tatsuya's order.
The cause of her hesitation came from her understanding that magic
sniping was her brother's area of expertise and that she was far less
capable than her brother in this regard.

In the first place, Miyuki was a magician who excelled in large scale magic
over a wide area.
On the other hand Lina's power was focused on individual objects,
excelling in severe magic on those.
From the beginning, this sort of engagement had favoured Miyuki.

Why would you need a statement for it? Miyuki easily beat Lina, in a serious 1v1 duel. You are being childish. You don't need a statement when it's clearly shown to you. You will have to deal with this fact until there's a rematch. For now Miyuki is clearly stronger.

She is not stronger and it's been made clear, she won fairly easily even because Lina underestimated her, was getting tired and Miyuki used better tactics. They are stated to be equal.

I don't know what you're saying. Lina doesn't have a chance of attacking Miyuki, and she knows this in their duel and even counts on it. In our previous discussion, I said that the only direct magic she can use that has a chance to pierce the ZI is HMB, but it's not really a direct target magic. It's a beam that shoots out.

The magic she used at this moment was Molecular Divider and it has been stated at this moment that surpassing the opponent in IS due to how it works. She had planned to attack with something else, thinking Miyuki had not noticed. Lina doesn't need HMB to attack Lina, that's ridiculous. With Brionac she is undoubtedly above Miyuki, it's the equivalent of Tatsuya with his Baryon Lance magic, Tatsuya managed to beat her when she used this not because he was stronger but because of his careful tactic and Lina's lack of blood lust. Even Katsuto can't beat Lina if she has Brionac, it will pierces Phalanx.

Also there are still minor differences even if you're in the same MP category like Lina and Miyuki are. Masaki has no feats that imply he's faster than Miyuki. I'd be willing to buy that he's faster using his innate magic with a specialized CAD than Miyuki is using normal magic, this sounds perfectly reasonable. Since, he was able to use it almost instantaneously against Zhou. So he would get the initiative. But as seen with the duel against Lina, Miyuki is able to switch in and out of defense seemingly effortlessly. And Masaki doesn't have nearly as great of a defensive prowess. And at the end of the day it's very difficult to imagine him finding a way of conjuring up credible threats to Miyuki, between her ZI and Deceleration Zone and being able to defend against Miyuki. I'm assuming Miyuki isn't using Cocytus either. Like I said, even in a scenario where Miyuki did nothing but defend which would never happen in reality, she has a lot larger of a psion reserve and she is spending a lot less. So the one to tap out would be Masaki.

Masaki is at his strongest taking out many magicians that are a bit weaker than him in terms of IS.

In this scenaio he is faster, right? So how is he doing anything faster than him? You are talking about switching but switching means that you are doing something before that. Miyuki never faced a worthy opponent besides Lina in this series, and she won fairly easily not because she was stronger. She attacked with a hastily made sequence and by surprise to have the edge in speed, and Miyuki doesn't have super acute senses like Tatsuya or Katsuto so how is she stopping Rupture especially when she is slower? I consider Masaki to be stronger for a reason, his Rupture is terribly fast, powerful and kills instantly and he excels at bombardment, he can spam it with ease and he is not limited to this magic. Against Tatsuya he was able to spam 16 extremely powerful Air Bullets, which as I said again are not even Dispersion type magic, only one of them is lethal. He was holding back all his attacks in the NSC besides the 16 shots against Tatsuya and it was enough to knock out even someone like Leo, in comparison, Takuma with seven Air Bullets isn't nearly as powerful. Tatsuya could stop 14 of them with Gram Demolition and would have managed to cancel them all with Gram Dispersion and Katsuto could have defended against it with Phalanx but even assuming Miyuki is able to nullify all of those 16 shots with ZI(I think she can). With Rupture it would have been even faster and stronger. And again, in a combat situation he can continue to spam them until he succeeds, it is not multicasting or anything so it doesn't halve his IS, which has been directly said to rival Minoru. According to volume 19, his answer to Gram Demolition is again, bombardment and in this situation he was using his best magic. I don't see how Miyuki could defend against that unless she is purely on the defense maybe, and even like that it'd be a matter of time. Lina is faster with her Parade and can counter it and Masaki didn't show any AOE magics other than Kyokan Jigoku, which I don't think can take down an opponents of this level but he is not limited like Tatsuya and his defense is actually good, albeit inferior to the likes of Miyuki and Katsuto. She didn't show any offensive magic enough to take him down and Minoru is slower and lacks feats as well. Other than Tatsuya, Katsuto is the only one I can see able to deal with a Rupture bombardment so far. I think Satou even confirmed somewhere that a match between Tatsuya and Masaki in Ice Pillars Break would be a draw because of the time limit on the JP wiki.

Against Katsuto Miyuki would really want to use Cocytus to get through Phalanx. But it would be interesting to see Katsuto vs Miyuki with Cocytus being banned. Miyuki would be at a disadvantage. But it's still hard to picture her losing.

At 9SC. Miyuki is actually using data fortification instead of ZI, plus she's obviously still sealed. In any case, Shizuku never does actually pierce the fortification. What happens is that, she is able to influence the temperature by heating the air, which causes Miyuki's blocks to momentarily melt.

Cocytus is not going to pierce Phalanx when even Tatsuya can't unless he has Baryon Lance. He has more than enough IS, moves fast, the best defense and Phalanx as a continuous attacks waves as well as his heightened magic senses. He is not losing.

Shizuku was the one using Data Fortification, Miyuki was using ZI

Spoiler for Quote:

The earth groaned as magic rushed towards Miyuki's field.
But the oscillations were stamped out the moment they tried to resonate.
Wide area magic prevented oscillations and movement within her own field
and extended across the earth's surface and below it as well.
The two of them went back and forth, taking turns using phenomenon
rewriting on the other's icicles. This was a perfect stalemate, worthy of the
praise from all the pundits and experts — on the outside.
But the combatants involved didn't think so.
(I can't get in......! As expected of Miyuki!)
Shizuku's "Resonance" was completely rejected by the enemy field.
In comparison, Miyuki's heat wave was enveloping Shizuku's field.

And her seal has no effects on her power, it affects her control. She is still as powerful as ever. It affects only her control under special circumstances. It's confirmed in the Q&A and there is no way she would have beat Lina during their game in terms of IS if her power was lowered. She thanked Tatsuya for releasing the seal when sh fought Lina because she knew she would have not been able to cast her ZI in time to stop Lina's attack with it.

[Zeborg]

In general Echizen, you talk too much about things you understand so little about. You are getting into arguments not because of valid and logical reasoning, but because you want things to be different from the way they are. You don't like the fact that Miyuki is so powerful, I already know that, and for some reason that I can only imagine you want Masaki to be more powerful than he is. So you are being biased.
As I'm going over your post you have to be willing to understand the words I'm saying, instead of trying to stubbornly argue something that isn't true. You have to be able to move past things that you are wrong about, or you are not really having a discussion. A soliloquy does not need 2 participants.

Originally Posted by Echizen777

This is Gram Dispersion's description

Spoiler for Gram Dispersion:

Magic Dissolution (Gram Dispersion)This magic takes a Magic Ritual and
decomposes it into a group of Psion particles without a meaningful
structure. Due to the nature of a Magic Ritual acting on the information of
an object accompanying a phenomenon, if the information has not been
exposed, it is impossible to interfere with the magic. On the other hand, if
the Magic Ritual is decomposed, the phenomenon will not occur. To
analyze the magic before the magic is activated in the present age where
invocation takes a fraction of a second requires the ability to [See] and
analyze the magic structure. Since the user is typically required to
understand the magic being used beforehand, it is thought utilization of this
magic is impossible.

The lines in bold are exactly the reason why he is the only one able to do this, Tatsuya is always able to read the sequences, the matter is if he'll have enough time to launch his CM, and if his magic will be strong enough to cancel it. And in the end, he cancelled that magic, the Night shattered, it's just that one of the rays injured him. There are no sequences for each rays. He nullified the magic but didn't manage to stop all the rays which had already brought a physical phenomena, strictly in terms of magic, he nullified MS.

He doesn't notice the magic after it's cast he does even before it's cast, his ES is like a sort of precognition. He doesn't need to be faster, his casting speed is already extremely high and he ready to act before the magic is complete. Which is why I mentioned Lina. We already know that her casting speed rivals Decomposition, he still cancelled her magic thrice when they met in volume 9.

Basically, there is no AS Tatsuya can't read. If he is able to use Gram Dispersion on it it means he has already read it. He cancelled MS and he cancelled Lina's magic but the physical changes brought by magic can't be stopped. It's just like when he cancelled Niflheim and Muspelheim

Ok, so what happens with Gram dispersion or Gram demolition is that once the magic starts getting cast, Tatsuya is able to pick up a record of it in the information dimension, and he is able to analyze and cancel the magic. This is not rocket science. There is no record of the magic being cast in the information dimension if the opponent doesn't start casting magic, it is physically and theoretically impossible to cancel magic that the opponent has not begun to cast. Hence, Tatsuya has to wait for the opponent to start casting and cancel it as soon as he can notice it. Meaning he needs a higher cast speed than the opponent since, the opponent will start first.
Starting to cast magic and the magic activating are different things. As I said, if you couldn't cancel magic before it activates, both of the GD's would be very weak.

Anyway, this is simple logic, that you should be able to understand if you just sit down and think about it for a moment. I don't understand why we're having this discussion.

To begin with, Tatsuya's limit at multi targeting is 24, not 32 or 36 and all we know about MS is that it creates countless ball of lights, it's a laser shower, it might very well be above 40 or 50.

Well, to begin with you don't even understand the quote you posted. If you just read the quote, he says his limit is 36 when the opponent is not retaliating. So 36, instead of 32. I didn't bother checking it because it wasn't that important and I was clearly not talking about the number he gives out for live combat.

Last time, I explained to you this magic in detail. Tatsuya will not be targeting "light" with GD. He will be targeting the event modification. There won't be even nearly 40 of them even if there would that many beams of light.

Miyuki's magic is called tactical and I explained what it means, there has been no clear description of Katsuto's magic and we know that Juumonjis are specialized at AOE defense so it implies nothing, it's just wishful thinking on your part.

I don't need you to explain anything to me. There is nothing to explain. Miyuki has tactical AoE magic, Katsuto doesn't. What's the problem here? Once he does have tactical AoE defense magic, you can come and argue about him being better. But for now, you're just looking stupid claiming this. If someone else can hold 20 barrels of water and I can't, you won't see me saying that I'm better at holding barrels of water. This is the claim you're making.

We concluded nothing, I even quoted examples of MI magic being countered that you refused to acknowledge, you didn't even want to acknowledge that Poisoned Bees was a MI magic. Also, Cocytus's range is unknown but it most likely is not an AOE magic considering how she used it so far.

Go read it again then. Because it was me just mostly explaining things that you did not understand, to you. While you pretended to know what you were talking about, which you clearly didn't. Cocytus targets Pushion bodies, against which barriers are not a defense for.

And we talked about Poisoned bees too and I presented you this very same quote from Volume 10:
"The magic Mitsugu used to bury the vampires was of his own devising.
Bearing the tasteless name “Poisoned Bees” that he applied himself, it was
a sensory interference spell that increased the target’s pain perception
infinitely until death."

Again, you just look incredibly stupid still arguing about this. You go so far into your own head that you refuse to believe things that are stated in the book and presented to you many times. This is true for many things, not just this one quote.

You are mixing things again, first you talk about power and now it's about versatility and I think this discussion is kinda pointless but you are trying too hard to downplay Rupture. Strictly in terms of attack power, Decomposition, Rupture and Phalanx and Cocytus are A rank Parade has no offensive power. Decomposition, Rupture and Phalanx can be used at non lethal level, Rupture is less versatile because the target needs contain fluids and the AOE version is much weaker but against weaponry and human opponents, it is equal to Mist Dispersion, Phalanx is lethal because the wave of barriers crush the target but with MD and Rupture it is instant, Cocytus can't work on machinery, but it does affect spirits. As I said, the Decomposition magics above it are Trident and Baryon Lance, you are right about Baryon Lance, it is not strictly Decomposition magic but Trident is one, it is both the name of his CAD and a magic, not a single Decomposition magic like MD but a triple Decomposition one, suable only with his Trident CAD of course. You don't know how high Masaki's IS is especially when he is using Rupture, but the fact that it has been directly compared to Minoru means it is very high.

What, you can only understand powerful magic as having attack power? I did not realize that I would have to make that distinction. Magic can obviously be very powerful without having any attack power whatsoever. I am not downplaying Rupture. And you did not have any counter arguments to what I said before. You are simply overestimating it because you want to like Masaki. It does you no good. It simply isn't as good as the other unique magics, mentioned here. I said it's powerful in it's own right. But it's the magic I would least want to pick out of all of the choices I presented. It is a glorified killing magic. And there are various other ways to kill people with magic. Just think about it for a second and be honest with yourself. It does not work on Parade, it does not work on Phalanx, it is less useful than Decomposition, as it only targets liquids and he has less IS than Tatsuya in any case, and when you compare it to something like Cocytus, that goes through Phalanx, is AoE so you can use it against Parade, and you can even target spirits with it, it's looks even worse. You are not being objective in your judgement. All of this I said to you in the previous post. And none of it can you deny. You can't deny it because it's true, and you're only digging yourself into a deeper hole.

Yes, I know I'm correct about Byron lance, but I'm also correct about Trident. This is because I do not claim to know things that I don't understand, like you do right here. Trident is not a magic, what it does is simply cast Decomposition 3 times with loop cast, which was designed specifically by Tatsuya for his own use:

Loop Cast System is the Activation Sequence that skips the step of restarting each Activation Sequence. If the Magic Sequence is the same, then the CAD no longer has to restart the Activation Sequence each time. This is done by adding a copying power to the Magic Calculation Area's execution mode, adding a copy of the Activation Sequence's last parts to the Activation Sequence itself, so Magicians can endlessly invoke magic within their ability.

Silver Horn Custom "Trident" . This was Tatsuya's favored instrument, that which brought out the finest of his magic. Tatsuya squeezed the Trident's trigger. His original magic, the military secret "Decomposition" activated. He had incorporated three consecutive Decomposition magics into one Magic Sequence and completely annihilated a Magician's flesh and body along with its naturally occurring magic protection barrier.

Are you seriously trying to tell me that, that you think Masaki has a higher IS than Tatsuya has with his natural MCA? Is that what you're doing?

Tatsuya is an irregular, he doesn't have the magic sense normal magicians have, he only uses ES and theoretically Decomposition magic is possible. If he had been born with the same talent as the others without ES and with the innate Decomposition magic, he could have used it without ES but, he would have not been able to use Gram Dispersion and it's explained why in the description I quoted above.

Why are you telling me this? I just told you previously that the only reason he's able to use Decomposition as a counter magic, this means Gram Dispersion, is because he has ES.
So please explain what is the point here.

He has a higher MP so what? We know it's IS, scale and speed, he has more MP, meaning that he stats are better overall, it doesn't mean that he has a faster casting speed. Mayumi is inferior to him in both MP and CP but she is still very strong and her MP is still very high. The text is clear, their speeds rival each others and it is enough to marvel even Miyuki.

Spoiler for Quote:

An activation sequence started on Minoru's right hand and it was absorbed in a moment. Due to the use of a perfect thought-operated type CAD, no buttons were pressed, which shouldn’t give any surprise once that is known. There should be a special mention of the activation sequence reading speed, which even if it’s estimated conservatively, it should be comparable to the speed of First High School former student council president Saegusa Mayumi.
However, it was still early to be surprised.
Without leaving an interval to be shocked about the activation sequence processing speed, Minoru released his magic.

With one step of his, the ground started emitting light. This was the Dispersion Systematic Magic "Spark". A fundamental technique that forces out electrons from a substance and causes an electric discharge phenomenon. The magic target is usually the air molecules within a narrow range from the substance. Although ionization of this nature is a relatively common phenomenon, it requires a very high interference power because the magic affects the substance structure altering it. Also, ordinary magicians have a low density of ionization, that is, the best they can produce is a small number of molecules within a certain volume of gas in a very limited range from the substance. And then, when the activation was almost fully in sight he fired against the ground surface.
So, this “Spark” has an electrical discharge range broader than the combination magic "Slithering Thunders"35 that the former Club Management Group Chief Hattori Hanzou is strong at. Moreover, as for the degree of difficulty, “Spark” is a better technique, despite Hattori’s magic applying conditions like using a frictional static electricity discharge. (Above Hattori-senpai and comparable to Saegusa-senpai!?) As Miyuki watched the scene, she forgot to cast support magic.

If you know that MP is IS, scale and speed. Then you are asking a dumb question, because you should know the answer already. You are literally saying MP affects speed, but then you're saying it's stupid to think that MP has an effect on speed. Do you even understand what you're saying? I don't know if you're pretending to be this dense or what it is, but I have a hard time understanding how you form your arguments.

Sequence reading speed is also different from overall cast speed. It has to do with CAD tuning. And that's probably why it's brought up. Minoru is a genius who tunes his own CAD.

Here is the quote, this is clear that their speed rival each others but you don't want to admit it with your "other variable" claims. Kyouko praised their for a reason, and Kyouko herself is a soldier from the Kudou clan.

Spoiler for Quote:

"Take this!"
"Kanon, using 'Mine Genesis' will cause too much trouble!"
After recovering her wits, Kanon was fired up and ready to unleash her
magic, but was stopped by Isori grabbing her wrist.
With the underground situation uncertain, there was a high possibility that
using surface oscillation magic might worsen the tragedy.
"I won't use that!"
Shaking off Isori's hand, Kanon was about to activate her magic.
Just as she took aim at the targets,
—Not only were they shot to pieces, they were also covered in white frost.
"Ah......"
"As expected of Mayumi and Miyuki. We don't even have time to do
anything."

Standing next to Kanon as she stared blankly, Fujibayashi offered her
praise while chuckling wryly. Mayumi was a little embarrassed whereas
Miyuki only offered a smile of her own as the two of them bowed.

Nothing in this quote implies that their casting speeds are the same.
And yes, without knowing the quote, it's impossible to say how whatever variables would come into effect. For example, the magic that they used could take a different amount of time to affect the target. Or if they even started to cast at the same time, very simple stuff.

However this quote specifically doesn't give us any relevant information. We don't know when they start casting and we don't know who destroyed what first. No time-frame for anything is given. Only that Miyuki and Mayumi had already destroyed the targets before Kanon was going to act. This is not a quote you use to prove anything.

Lia and Miyuki are not close in MP, they are equals. No one is superior to each other, meaning that the addition of MP, Scale and Speed give exactly the same amount and this is the highest MP possible. Your claim that Decomposition= Cocytus in speed is baseless.
Cocytus and Freezing magic are her specialty, Cocytus is especially called a Soul Freeze magic, there is no reason for Cocytus to be faster than her cast of Niflheim, Inferno or the other freezing magics she uses. Moreover, a CAD doesn't have much importance when you are casting NS or MI magic in terms of speed, which is precisely why I used this to compare Tatsuya and Masaki's speed at the 9SC.

Miyuki set up earlier and hastily completed her Freezing magic against Lina because she knew she was slower. It was not any kind of magic, it was Freezing magic, her specialty. Lina's speed has been established to be equal to Tatsuya's Decomposition when she is not using Parade so Miyuki is undoubtedly slower.

It is as I said previously: Flash Cast>Lina's Parade> Tatsuya's use of his special magics= Lina casting speed for other magics> Miyuki.
Miyuki loses in speed but wins in IS, this is clear.

No. No one is truly "equal", in MP. There will be minor differences here and there. Just like Miyuki and Lina have.
You are so dishonest Echizen. It really does you no good. You don't win arguments by stubbornly claiming something false. For instance, you say that Masaki can use Rupture faster because it's his innate magic, which is true of course, but at the same time you say that Miyuki can't use Cocytus faster even though it's her innate magic. Cocytus is not freezing magic, which would actually be under Oscillation magic. No, Cocytus is MI magic. Innate magic is faster than normal magic. You are the one making baseless claims, and you know this. You are just hoping you get away with it, but you wont.
There is nothing in the books that you can use to back up these claims, because it's incorrect. Cocytus is a lot faster than Miyuki simply casting her regular magics. The correct list is this: Flash Cast > Lina > Tatsuya/Miyuki. And there is no need to mention innate magics, because they are always faster than normal magics. Meaning Tatsuya's and Miyuki's overall casting speed is less than Linas, but they can keep up with innate magics.

Tatsuya was unable to destroy all the barriers with Decomposition before Baryon Lance so why would Miyuki be able to?

Well, this is the problem isn't it. You don't care about the things being said. You just want to argue, to reinforce your opinion. So you don't even care enough to sit down for a while and understand whats being discussed. And now I have to explain it to you over several posts.

We were talking about IS. The fact that Tatsuya is able to destroy the barriers of Phalanx, means that he has a higher IS, for which I gave a quote in the last post. Meaning Tatsuya has a higher IS than Katsuto with his natural MCA. Meaning as an extension that Miyuki has a higher IS than Katsuto as well. The point isn't destroying all of the barriers.

And? Her IS is among the highest, it has not be stated to be the highest or higher than Tatsuya's. One of the reasons why raw MP =/= CP is because IS and other parameters differ depending on the magic used. I already mentioned that her ZI was not able to stop Lina's Parade. Tatsuya and Lina were able to cast magic but they needed to make their IS denser. Tatsuya's IS doesn't have importance when he is nullifying magic, the Gram magics don't rely on IS, they are NS magics even though Gram Dispersion is a subset of Decomposition, any NS magic can be cast even under ZI.

Miyuki's IS is higher than Tatsuyas we have several quotes about her IS.
The quote I've given you numerous times proves that:

Miyuki’s Zone Intereference made the area a magic null zone.
In the face of that both Tatsuya and Lina switched to narrow, high
density magics.
Their interference strength was only enough to counteract Miyuki’s.
Mounting a direct attack against Miyuki under her zone would have
been difficult even for these two

If Tatsuya had a higher IS, he would not have any difficulty in attacking Miyuki directly. You are simply wrong.

Well, first, Gram Dispersion is decomposition. It doesn't have to be. But the way Tatsuya uses it, it's just decomposition. The idea with Gram dispersion is just to get rid of the magic sequence before the spell completes, Tatsuya does this with Decomposition, but it's theoretically possible to do it with other magics. But really ES, is the requirement to use it in a live situation.
Secondly, Tatsuya would be Decomposing Katsutos barriers, not using GD against it:

Katsuto's magic "Phalanx", as opposed to Tatsuya's original magic
"Decomposition", are like natural enemies.
The moment one barrier is pierced through, another takes its place.
It would be endless.

As yous said they are all products of genetic manipulation, Miyuki being a masterpiece has the highest MP but none of the magicians from the 28 families are standard as you said, they are all born gifted at magic. Your reasoning doesn't make sense at all. She can't be better than Ichijou at Dispersion type magic or better than Saegusa and multicasting or Herd Control magic and so on. Even more standards magicians can best her at their specialties, there is no way she can best Honoka at light Oscillation magic and it's even been directly stated that she can't come close to Ayako when it comes to magic used for intelligence and so on. Magicians have all their strong and weak areas and Saegusa are jack of all stats good at anything unless they are exception like Mayumi. As I said already, it's been mentioned than even Lina, who has equal talent to her would have died trying to multicast against Miyuki when she used Muspelheim while the Saegusa twins can handle two high level magics at once without problems.

You have no idea what Miyuki being the masterpiece means in technical terms, and don't pretend you do. It simply means that she's exceptional, there might be any number of things that come into play.

And you also have no idea what I was talking about you applying a standard rule to her, do you?
All of the things you said here, all of the assumptions, are incorrect. I tried explaining it to you in the last post but seems like it all went over her head. Miyuki can actually be better than all of these families at these things, she most likely isn't, but it's perfectly possible. The idea is that, other families have gotten these abilities by being modified by genetic manipulation and magic. Same as Miyuki. The thing is though, that we don't know the extent of these modifications that have been made on Miyuki. So you say, Ok, well the Juumonji have been modified so that they have great spatial awareness and that's why they have those qualities. But how has Miyuki been modified? That's something you don't know. We know she was modified from Yotsuba material, this means she inherited the natural Yotsuba abilities and is the reason she has Cocytus which is MI magic as well as why she has great MP in general, and also her father is the reason she has such an extreme psion quantity. The rest is speculation. We know Miyuki is great at every aspect of magic, so it might be that, the reason for that is her being a modified magician. Who knows. But she is unique enough that the Yotsuba are unable to repeat the procedure.
Nevertheless you can't say that because other magicians have this specialty Miyuki, who is a modified magician whose modifications you don't understand can only have said specialty.

I talked about AOE and single targeting. She is better at AOE so obviously less good at single targeting. Miyuki didn't even use a lot of varied magic, how can you say that she is extremely good at all of them? If she is above average in all of them, it's compared to normal magicians.

Here are quotes

Spoiler for Quote:

Though Miyuki was different than her brother in that she didn't have to hide
her abilities, the campus practice facilities for students and clubs didn't
allow her to bring her full might to bear. In addition, the magic she excelled
in was closer to wide-area magic rather than targeted sniping. Since she
usually lacked a venue or time for shooting practice, Tatsuya pulled her
along saying that "this is an excellent opportunity".

"Miyuki, take it down."
A simple order.
At this time, Miyuki returned to a more serious expression.
"......Understood."
After a brief hesitation, Miyuki nodded.
Miyuki wasn't going to disobey Tatsuya's order.
The cause of her hesitation came from her understanding that magic
sniping was her brother's area of expertise and that she was far less
capable than her brother in this regard.

In the first place, Miyuki was a magician who excelled in large scale magic
over a wide area.
On the other hand Lina's power was focused on individual objects,
excelling in severe magic on those.
From the beginning, this sort of engagement had favoured Miyuki.

I can very easily say that because it's directly stated in the books:

Although she couldn't draw data directly from the dimension of
information like Tatsuya, it was possible to perceive the traces of
event modification left by magic. This was something any magician
could do at varying levels, and anything a magician could do Miyuki
could do at the highest level.

And just as I said in my last post. Having a specialty doesn't mean you are worse at other things. It simply means you have a specialty. This kind of thinking makes no sense. It's like saying just because Ronaldinho (Football; could be argued to have the greatest ball handling skills of all time = specialty) had a ridiculously good dribbling skill and could do a lot of tricks, he would be weaker at ball accuracy than some other pro player. Which definitely is not the case. He also had a super deadly shot.

She is not stronger and it's been made clear, she won fairly easily even because Lina underestimated her, was getting tired and Miyuki used better tactics. They are stated to be equal.

Made clear by Lina losing a serious duel against her easily? This is a joke, Echizen. As you said MP does not mean combat strength. They might have a similar amount of MP, but this doesn't mean Miyuki isn't stronger. As I said. You will have to wait for the rematch to talk about this. Because, right now, it's pointless. You aren't being logical.

The magic she used at this moment was Molecular Divider and it has been stated at this moment that surpassing the opponent in IS due to how it works. She had planned to attack with something else, thinking Miyuki had not noticed. Lina doesn't need HMB to attack Lina, that's ridiculous. With Brionac she is undoubtedly above Miyuki, it's the equivalent of Tatsuya with his Baryon Lance magic, Tatsuya managed to beat her when she used this not because he was stronger but because of his careful tactic and Lina's lack of blood lust. Even Katsuto can't beat Lina if she has Brionac, it will pierces Phalanx.

I've noticed that when you have nothing to say you start to retell the events of the books. I know how the duel went. And it's also clearly stated that she isn't able to use directly targetable magic against Miyuki. Which she doesn't do at all in their duel, except for the one time that she knows it isn't going to work. We talked about this already. And we ended up with the same conclusion of you not having anything relevant to add. Just admit you're wrong.
To attack her directly would require Lina to have a higher IS than she does. This is how magic works in Mahouka, It's no use complaining to me about it, that's pointless. If you have a problem with it, call Satou. Because it's not something that is in my control. I'm just not going to lie, to make something fit into my mental framework.

In this scenaio he is faster, right? So how is he doing anything faster than him? You are talking about switching but switching means that you are doing something before that. Miyuki never faced a worthy opponent besides Lina in this series, and she won fairly easily not because she was stronger. She attacked with a hastily made sequence and by surprise to have the edge in speed, and Miyuki doesn't have super acute senses like Tatsuya or Katsuto so how is she stopping Rupture especially when she is slower? I consider Masaki to be stronger for a reason, his Rupture is terribly fast, powerful and kills instantly and he excels at bombardment, he can spam it with ease and he is not limited to this magic. Against Tatsuya he was able to spam 16 extremely powerful Air Bullets, which as I said again are not even Dispersion type magic, only one of them is lethal. He was holding back all his attacks in the NSC besides the 16 shots against Tatsuya and it was enough to knock out even someone like Leo, in comparison, Takuma with seven Air Bullets isn't nearly as powerful. Tatsuya could stop 14 of them with Gram Demolition and would have managed to cancel them all with Gram Dispersion and Katsuto could have defended against it with Phalanx but even assuming Miyuki is able to nullify all of those 16 shots with ZI(I think she can). With Rupture it would have been even faster and stronger. And again, in a combat situation he can continue to spam them until he succeeds, it is not multicasting or anything so it doesn't halve his IS, which has been directly said to rival Minoru. According to volume 19, his answer to Gram Demolition is again, bombardment and in this situation he was using his best magic. I don't see how Miyuki could defend against that unless she is purely on the defense maybe, and even like that it'd be a matter of time. Lina is faster with her Parade and can counter it and Masaki didn't show any AOE magics other than Kyokan Jigoku, which I don't think can take down an opponents of this level but he is not limited like Tatsuya and his defense is actually good, albeit inferior to the likes of Miyuki and Katsuto. She didn't show any offensive magic enough to take him down and Minoru is slower and lacks feats as well. Other than Tatsuya, Katsuto is the only one I can see able to deal with a Rupture bombardment so far. I think Satou even confirmed somewhere that a match between Tatsuya and Masaki in Ice Pillars Break would be a draw because of the time limit on the JP wiki.

Tactics are part of combat strength, this is why combat experience can matter. And in any case, there was nothing wrong with Lina's tactic, they both had just as much information about each other, in terms of magical capability.
Obviously there is a time delay after casting magic, since you have to start it again. Or do you mean to say that Masaki will be using Rupture nonstop against the wall of ZI that Miyuki has, despite knowing that it doesn't work? That is not what will happen.
Again, it doesn't matter how powerful Rupture is. He would have to have a higher IS than Miyuki, which is impossible. Even Lina doesn't have that much. It's simply the limitation of the spell. If you can't do it on the first try, it doesn't matter if you try to do it 100 more times, it will always fail. IS is not something you can raise, or lower.
Miyuki does actually have special instincts:

Miyuki's senses had felt Lina blazing in faster than the eye could see.
Although she couldn't draw data directly from the dimension of
information like Tatsuya, it was possible to perceive the traces of
event modification left by magic.

So she has the ability to know what's coming, but with less detail than Tatsuya. She can also somehow understand things that happened for example when she could sense that Tatsuya was in a battle. MI magicians are known to have unnatural senses.

Against, Minoru or Lina, Masaki would not be able to use Rupture because of Parade, eliminating his only strong point in comparison to the others. Lina has a higher cast speed than he does anyway so he would get overwhelmed regardless. But Minoru would win simply by the virtue of their specialties being a bad matchup. Plus Minoru seems to be much more dangerous of a combatant than Masaki. This is just my opinion by judging the temperament of both characters.

Cocytus is not going to pierce Phalanx when even Tatsuya can't unless he has Baryon Lance. He has more than enough IS, moves fast, the best defense and Phalanx as a continuous attacks waves as well as his heightened magic senses. He is not losing.

Cocytus pierces Phalanx. It doesn't move through the information dimension and it targets the pushion body instead of the physical body. A barrier is not a defense for it.
Again, this is just how the magic works. You saying "He is not losing", doesn't mean anything. You just have to accept this. Don't be so bitter.

Shizuku was the one using Data Fortification, Miyuki was using ZI

Spoiler for Quote:

The earth groaned as magic rushed towards Miyuki's field.
But the oscillations were stamped out the moment they tried to resonate.
Wide area magic prevented oscillations and movement within her own field
and extended across the earth's surface and below it as well.
The two of them went back and forth, taking turns using phenomenon
rewriting on the other's icicles. This was a perfect stalemate, worthy of the
praise from all the pundits and experts — on the outside.
But the combatants involved didn't think so.
(I can't get in......! As expected of Miyuki!)
Shizuku's "Resonance" was completely rejected by the enemy field.
In comparison, Miyuki's heat wave was enveloping Shizuku's field.

Again, you give me a quote which does nothing to prove your point. Wide area magic means AoE, not ZI. It's clearly not talking about ZI, since it's not hampering Shizuku's ability to cast, just the vibration waves produced by her magic. Meaning Miyuki is counteracting the vibrations, through any number of applications. But it is not ZI, that's not how it works.

Regardless, it isn't really important what method she is using. As I said in the last post, Shizuku simply warms the air, which has an effect on Miyuki's blocks.

And her seal has no effects on her power, it affects her control. She is still as powerful as ever. It affects only her control under special circumstances. It's confirmed in the Q&A and there is no way she would have beat Lina during their game in terms of IS if her power was lowered. She thanked Tatsuya for releasing the seal when sh fought Lina because she knew she would have not been able to cast her ZI in time to stop Lina's attack with it.

Power and control are related. Here is what happens with her duel against Lina:

Her magic which indiscriminately defended against all directions was
more difficult than one which targeted an area, far more difficult than
one which targeted individual objects, yet Miyuki as she was now
could pull it off with ease.
It could even stop this attack filled with the magic power of the Sirius,
Lina.
If her control had been tied up in Tatsuya's seal as usual, it would have
been hard for her to defend against that.
She most likely wouldn't have been able to manage the control needed
for such a dense technique.

[mashingan]

IMO, unsealed Miyuki with Cocytus still cannot defeat Lina with Parade and Brionac.

It because Miyuki couldn't find where the target, in this case Lina, if Lina was using Parade.
Even if Miyuki used AoE magic, Lina simply took position where she out of Miyuki magic's range and attacked with Brionac (Well, it's tactical magic vs strategical magic after all).

[bakato]

Originally Posted by mashingan

IMO, unsealed Miyuki with Cocytus still cannot defeat Lina with Parade and Brionac.

It because Miyuki couldn't find where the target, in this case Lina, if Lina was using Parade.
Even if Miyuki used AoE magic, Lina simply took position where she out of Miyuki magic's range and attacked with Brionac (Well, it's tactical magic vs strategical magic after all).

But Lina can't use Parade and Brionac at the same time.

[Medivh]

Originally Posted by mashingan

IMO, unsealed Miyuki with Cocytus still cannot defeat Lina with Parade and Brionac.

It because Miyuki couldn't find where the target, in this case Lina, if Lina was using Parade.
Even if Miyuki used AoE magic, Lina simply took position where she out of Miyuki magic's range and attacked with Brionac (Well, it's tactical magic vs strategical magic after all).

It depends if the mind is also masked together with the eidos. If miyuki is able to locate her mind, cocytus should hit.

Originally Posted by bakato

But Lina can't use Parade and Brionac at the same time.

She was still under parade but she didn't shift position.

[Zeborg]

Originally Posted by mashingan

IMO, unsealed Miyuki with Cocytus still cannot defeat Lina with Parade and Brionac.

It because Miyuki couldn't find where the target, in this case Lina, if Lina was using Parade.
Even if Miyuki used AoE magic, Lina simply took position where she out of Miyuki magic's range and attacked with Brionac (Well, it's tactical magic vs strategical magic after all).

Not on paper. Might be that Tatsuya couldn't either. Parade isn't that big of an issue for Miyuki though, since she can sense incoming magic and she has such great defensive ability. Also, it's not like she can't trace Lina's magic to have a guesstimate as to where Lina really is and use AoE. The illusion and the real body, shouldn't be that far apart anyway, as Tatsuya just opts to throw up a grenade, to find out her real location Miyuki would be covering a much larger area. It's really only a problem when you are using direct target magic, that requires absolute coordinates. Assumedly, this is why Lina wasn't using Parade in their duel anyway. Probably wasn't worth the effort.
The problem has more to do with Brionac being too fast, and pretty much unguardable. So unless there is something from Miyuki that we don't know about there really isn't much that she can do.
They aren't using Brionac or Cocytus in their duel though, which is what we've been talking about. And you know, theory and practice are always different. Lina should have easily won against Tatsuya with these tools as well and she didn't.

But it's true though, that Lina should win in a duel if she was able to use Brionac.

[mashingan]

Originally Posted by bakato

But Lina can't use Parade and Brionac at the same time.

Not sure whether she was able to or not, when she was fighting Tatsuya she released Parade in order to maximize Brionac.

Originally Posted by Medivh

It depends if the mind is also masked together with the eidos. If miyuki is able to locate her mind, cocytus should hit.

I think Parade is not only masking the eidos, but the data in Ideo. However it indeed is depended on how skillful the user.

Originally Posted by Zeborg

Not on paper. Might be that Tatsuya couldn't either. Parade isn't that big of an issue for Miyuki though, since she can sense incoming magic and she has such great defensive ability. Also, it's not like she can't trace Lina's magic to have a guesstimate as to where Lina really is and use AoE. The illusion and the real body, shouldn't be that far apart anyway, as Tatsuya just opts to throw up a grenade, to find out her real location Miyuki would be covering a much larger area. It's really only a problem when you are using direct target magic, that requires absolute coordinates. Assumedly, this is why Lina wasn't using Parade in their duel anyway. Probably wasn't worth the effort.
The problem has more to do with Brionac being too fast, and pretty much unguardable. So unless there is something from Miyuki that we don't know about there really isn't much that she can do.
They aren't using Brionac or Cocytus in their duel though, which is what we've been talking about. And you know, theory and practice are always different. Lina should have easily won against Tatsuya with these tools as well and she didn't.

But it's true though, that Lina should win in a duel if she was able to use Brionac.

Yes, in actual battle/war, many factors are involved. The position and timing and/or especially ambushing are some factors that determine the line between the victor and the loser. That's why Kazama and Kudou Retsu were dubbed as ones of strongest magicians because those two are Ancient magician. Ancient magic is way slower than Modern magic however its versatility exceeds Modern magic by far in battlefields.
I do believe Tatsuya is one of Ancient Magician, or rather, his style is Ancient Magic's style while wielding Modern Magic

In sporting duel, I think Miyuki is stronger than Lina. Lina is faster for magic activation however Miyuki has stronger output. (Iirc, when those two dueling in practical lesson, Miyuki scored more than Lina).

For Miyuki against Juumonji, if the duel type is typical head-on, I think it would be draw because Juumonji's interference is stronger but he wouldn't have any chance to attack back because Miyuki's magic is AoE
All he can do is to defend while Miyuki's attack won't be able to pass through. It becomes battle of attrition
For other type of sporting duel, it's depend on the duel itself. I don't believe Juumonji be able to be better in Mirage Bat (who want to see Juumonji in Mirage Bat? ) but in Pillars Break he has better advantage than Miyuki.

[Aika Natsume]

Question:

1. Can Tatsuya cancel Miyuki's cocytus by gram dispersion?
2. Can Tatsuya heal or resurrect a person under cocytus spell??
3. Can Tatsuya heal or resirrect a person who burst out with rupture???
4. When is it possible for Miyuki to use the Yotsuba name???

Thanks!

[Medivh]

1) It depends on how fast and complicated cocytus is. So, there is a possibility that cocytus cannot be canceled

2)No

3)No. That guy is probably dead.

4)iirc, I think it is after high school that she is going to use the Yotsuba name.

[Aika Natsume]

Question:

1. It is said that out of all the Outer systematic Magic, the harshest restriction is for the users of Mental control magics aka MI.. so was it mentioned in the LN what are these restrictions??
2. Asuza is a mental magic user right? She used it to calm down the students in the hall, i dont see her restrictions there except that Mayumi said she will take responsibility.
3. Based on nmber 2, when Mayumi said she will take responsibility, i take that she means the "saegusa" or as a member of the 10mc she will take responsibility. So Miyuki is now on 10 Mc wouldnt that make her restriction less from using MI??
4. Is MI users that rare???
5. Can a magician learn a mental interference magic and put the sequence in their own CADs???

Thanks.