Macross Delta - Episode 11 Discussion / Poll

[Tenzen12]

So issue with Mirage is she is realistic and approachable instead of super special and quirky?

To be honest she is my favorite character especially because former. If she was RL person I would probably bat for her after getting her know a bit (I can't say that about many anime girls, even among my personal top 10)

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Tenzen12

To be honest she is my favorite character especially because former. If she was RL person I would probably bat for her after getting her know a bit (I can't say that about many anime girls, even among my personal top 10)

The ears! Don't forget those nom-nom ears!



- Tak

[Tenzen12]

Of course that contribute too

[Arya]

Originally Posted by Thess

I still don't understand you. Kawamori wanted since episode 1 sell Sheryl to the audience (even edited and made three versions to get different impressions of her), kind of like he wanted to sell Freyja first. [snip]

Well, it's exactly that, they wanted to push Freyja this time. They wanted Sheryl with MF and Ranka archetype with Delta. And in fact Frejya is the main heroine. to be extra sure they also thought to nerf Mirage, her supposed rival (or what we thought she would have been). That's of course has nothing to do with Frejya as a character. Or any character. Each character works or do not independently from the others.

Yeah, because for me the only similarity with MF is exactly Ranka/Frejya, being Frejya a better version of Ranka (that personally I didn't like). And maybe Hayate a less mature version of Alto to match with Frejya (instead of Sheryl). But that's it. If we want play the comparison game, I kinda see Delta more close to Aquarion Evol, with Amata/Mikono as main characters and zess/Mirage as a characterization gone wrong (or in this case hijaked).

In any case I said what I thought and it's fine to have different opinions after all. What doesn't help me is that I don't like the Ranka/Frejya archetype to begin with, the maho shojo one, so it's kinda a barrier for me, a tad too irrealistic for me.

edit: yeah Mirage and Messer were the one I can connect better for being more down to earth. Like Tenzen was saying.

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Arya

Well, it's exactly that, they wanted to push Freyja this time. They wanted Sheryl with MF and Ranka archetype with Delta. And in fact Frejya is the main heroine. to be extra sure they also thought to nerf Mirage, her supposed rival (or what we thought she would have been).

Come on! Is this going to be the Delta conspiracy theory? Is someone already writing the fake interviews and fanfiction? I can see it now, "Mirage was supposed to be the focus character, but then evil Kawamori with his Ranka mania came and pushed Ranka Freyja, against the will of the staff!! Poor Mirage, she's getting sacrificed for RankaFreyja to succeed!!"

Mirage is not "getting nerfed" for pete's sake. And she's not Freyja's rival, that's Mikumo, both as a singer and in popularity. (Look at all the romantic developments on the Freyja/Hayate/Mirage front - yeah, that's about the extent of their "rivalry". And for that matter I'm still fairly certain that Mirage will end up with Hayate.) She has been given screentime and characterization - it's not really the writers' fault that some people went into this with different expectations and now feel let down because so far they're not getting what they expected and "their" girl is not getting the push they want. If I look around among non-hardcore fans, people seem to like Mirage just well and don't think she's being sacrificed or whatever. Mirage is not a non-entity, she just hasn't been in focus on her own (Hayate is pulling her along nicely) so far because the story hasn't called for it. But even so, Mirage is not the main heroine, it's Freyja. So the story is about Freyja and her struggles as a Walküre and as a Windermerean and so on and so forth. That's not "getting nerfed" that's "we have 25 episodes and need to decide what we'll focus on".

Originally Posted by Arya

Yeah, because for me the only similarity with MF is exactly Ranka/Frejya, being Frejya a better version of Ranka (that personally I didn't like). And maybe Hayate a less mature version of Alto to match with Frejya (instead of Sheryl). But that's it. If we want play the comparison game, I kinda see Delta more close to Aquarion Evol, with Amata/Mikono as main characters and zess/Mirage as a characterization gone wrong (or in this case hijaked).

You do realize that Zessica got LOADS more screentime than Mikono (and even Amata) did, right? Her characterization got screwed up because of the writer being biased toward unrequited love angst and basically turned her from a likeable, fun character into a depressed ball of angst whose entire existence revolves around the fact that some guy doesn't love her back. But nonetheless she did get loads of writer attention and fan sympathy. Mikono meanwhile got hate and was, in comparison, all but neglected by the writer. Evol was a textbook example of How Not To Treat Your Main Characters, something that Delta is doing a good job avoiding, as far as I'm concerned.

[Arya]

@kuromitsu: I wasn't taking it seriously, I was just explaining the gist, as much as for the Aquarion evol comparison, no similarities between the main chars of course
Edit: but i agree that, at least for me, is also a matter of expectations. I kinda was expecting a three main char show, balancing the more magical side with the soldier serious one. The good news is that i'm going on holiday starting from tomorrow so I won't bother to the subforum for a while

[Thess]

Originally Posted by Arya

Well, it's exactly that, they wanted to push Freyja this time. They wanted Sheryl with MF and Ranka archetype with Delta.

Huh? Exactly how is Freyja a Ranka 'archetype' (Ranka is an archetype? Maho shoujo, what?)? Look, when Kawamori speaks of Freyja's character is a "very proactive character" and the kind of girl and singer who would "truly put her life in line on the battlefield," iirc. If you mean, a young rising star? That's not a Ranka archetype. Ranka and Sheryl are just two takes of Minmay archetypes: the rising star (SDFM) and the veteran diva (DYRL). You're saying that Freyja is newest update of a Minmay archetype? Yes, most certainly. It is Macross. There's most certainly not some kind of "conspiracy" against Mirage because, according to you, Ranka was a failure. No, Ranka was successful, just not as much as Sheryl, but both were hits and made a lot of money. If you use this logic Kawamori reused some 'formula' with Mikumo (not Mirage, Mirage has nothing in common with Sheryl Nome), the diva, and Freyja, the rising star. But that's where their similitudes end.

Hayate isn't a more "childish Alto" either. If you actually watched the first Macross, Hikaru was also obsessed with flying and disregarded the military, looking down on them in the beginning. Alto didn't make up that "archetype."

(And by the way, nobody is saying Kawamori isn't biased. He loves his idols. Whatever favoritism has to do with this more than something specific on Mirage and Freyja, but about Walkure and everyone else. They needed to sell those cds).

[kuromitsu]

Originally Posted by Thess

Huh? Exactly how is Freyja a Ranka 'archetype' (Ranka is an archetype? Maho shoujo, what?)? Look, when Kawamori speaks of Freyja's character is a "very proactive character" and the kind of girl and singer who would "truly put her life in line on the battlefield," iirc. If you mean, a young rising star? That's not a Ranka archetype. Ranka and Sheryl are just two takes of Minmay archetypes: the rising star (SDFM) and the veteran diva (DYRL).
...

Hayate isn't a more "childish Alto" either. If you actually watched the first Macross, Hikaru was also obsessed with flying and disregarded the military, looking down on them in the beginning. Alto didn't make up that "archetype."

Yep. And again this is another reason why I keep boggling at people dragging Frontier and the Frontier cast into these kind of discussions about Delta. I understand that Frontier is many people's favorite Macross and people have strong feelings about those characters (good and bad both... poor Ranka), but Delta is not a sequel to Frontier, Delta is not building its story and characters on Frontier... and for that matter Frontier didn't really do anything groundbreaking except for having two idol singers as main characters. Regardless of its popularity, Frontier is not the "definitive" show in the Macross franchise, I wish people would realize that.

(If anything, to me Hayate is more like a nicer, more considerate and more well-adjusted Isamu, funnily enough. And the Freyja/Mirage duo still keeps reminding me of Basara and Gamlin. Then again, we know that Basara and Gamlin were more than friends... )

^Edit: for that matter Gamlin also received less screentime and spotlight than Basara, because duh, he wasn't the focus character and the "idol" (as far as Basara can be considered an idol singer). I love Gamlin and I was rooting for him, and I would've appreciated more screentime for him, but he wasn't the central character, Basara was.

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Thess

About the character's storyarcs... Ranka, Sheryl and Alto's backstories weren't fully revealed on episode 11. Sure we got bits of Ranka's past (thanks to Ozma) and some of Alto, but that's it. We know more of Mirage than we knew of Sheryl, for example. Freyja's past flashback is recurrent as a way for her to steel herself to sing, but we can understand her house burned down during the civil war. Hayate's drifting around and possible father/mother are referred. Someday they'll explore it but it's too soon.

Ranka by episode 11 had an established backstory (which was later fleshed out extensively), a story arc with logical character development for herself and had grown quite a bit as a character, too. Yeah, I quite liked TV Ranka as a character even until episode 17.

Sheryl by ep 11 had enough hints of a backstory to be tantalizing and teasing what would happen later, had a at this point smaller, yet existant story arc with consistent character development and had quite a lot of constant character growth, with a big jump forward in episode 12 already.

Originally Posted by Thess

Hayate so far is more developed than Alto was by episode 11, imo

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAAAHHH.

No. No, he isn't. Thanks for the laugh, though.

Originally Posted by Thess

(he started to mature much later, but he did get some good flesh out scenes like in episode 6 with Sheryl).

Alto has had the biggest story arc *and* character arc of the main three at this point in the series. While Ranka and, to a lesser extent, Sheryl were mostly swept along by the tides of the plot, Alto took his destiny firmly in his hands by episode four and had been propelling much of the plot of Frontier forward. He also had most of his backstory already revealed to us and was working through the events of his past, which would come into focus again during the Gallia IV arc in episodes 12 and 13.

His character development had done great leaps forward, too, given how he had made peace with Michael, gotten over his absolute dislike of his past as an actor being mentioned in episode 10 to help out with the filming of the movie and having come to a mutual armistice of sorts with Sheryl.

There is simply no comparison to Hayate, who has no backstory to speak of, has had very sudden character growth spurts and, frankly, has therefore not much places to go as a character at this moment. However, events of the upcoming episode may change that, radically. But at this point, he is far, far less developed than Alto was at episode 11.

Originally Posted by Thess

Freyja is really a superb job with a good pacing (and makes me wish she had replaced Ranka in Frontier, not for the 'triangle' stuff because I don't see Freyja falling for Alto at all, but mostly because I think her relationship with Sheryl would be really touching! Sheryl would be a nurturing big sister/idol with a shared passion and she would give her the emotional support during the disease AHHH. They should meet in one of those crossovers stories, please! It would be so adorable).

Freyja would have made the romance a competition, but of course she wouldn't have fitted at all in the overarcing plot of Frontier.

Originally Posted by Thess

I agree with others that Mirage is the weak link when you contrast with Frontier. I mean she "changed", but it seemed mostly she changed her hostility to Hayate and nothing profound of her as a person. If that makes sense? Maybe she'll be fleshed out in the second half, but my concern is that she won't have a role to play in the big scheme (because she's neither the main character, the main rival, or a singer who needs to find her resolve like Freyja or Kaname) so it'll be flushed into a corner or become Hayate's sidekick accessory (because she can't outshine him). I'm cautiously optimistic, but aware they have a lot of characters and a plot that takes precedence.

She is one of the three main characters displayed prominently in the OP. She, by Kawamoris own words, is supposed to be a part of the love triangle, however weak that one may be (I wonder how the sponsors are reacting to being kinda deceived by Kawamori ). She really should have a larger part in the plot and in the character development department and it would be a disservice to both her and the fans to continue just having her in the background, mumbling "Hayate" "Freyja" and "Delta Five" every once in a while.