2011-01-24, 18:55 | Link #301 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
That's a matter of personal preference and interpretation, but it's worth pointing out Lelouch was always an arrogant person whose original quest was essentially based on his own desires and ideas, not those of Nunnally or anyone else, in spite of all his self-justifications.
Nobody told him to become Zero and manipulate everyone else, both literally and figuratively, for the sake of his own aspirations and nobody told him to carry out Zero Requiem for the sake of his own needs. Both of those were choices that Lelouch made and they can all be considered rather arrogant, because while certain aspects are truly selfless others remain, no doubt, arbitrary and questionable. All of his actions affected other people who, strictly speaking, had the right to avoid being involved in situations that weren't of their own making but simply a result of Lelouch's decisions. Logically enough, his choices weren't always correct or even necessary in the first place. Whether you believe that ZR is still too much is, of course, another matter, but this general theme has been present in the story from its very beginning. It's up to each member of the audience to decide how to react to such things. Me? You could say I'm content with accepting that arrogance was an undeniable part of his personality throughout the entire show, and thus one can argue his ultimate conclusion was based on trying to reconcile two (or more) distinct ideas: a)letting people choose their own future as soon as Lelouch left the stage. b)doing it in a way that would satisfy Lelouch's own psyche, pride, guilt complex and sense of justice. While there is more than one contradiction involved, to say the least, it must nevertheless be pointed out that Lelouch's way of doing things has never been free of tensions, ironies and logical or moral paradoxes. And since we've debated this more than a dozen times, I believe, I'll just try to quote or paraphrase one of the few good things that ever came out of TV Tropes...tropes are not inherently good or bad. They are what we -and the creative staff- want to make of them. Story concepts and plot devices which some find intolerable will be perfectly acceptable for other people...and, naturally, vice versa. All of which brings us back to an old discussion...whether we should be assuming that the show ever had the obligation or intention of providing a straightforward, plausible or just and fair moral message with universal application instead of one whose meaning is exclusively centered on none other than Lelouch himself, as the protagonist of a completely fictional narrative arc (not to mention that reality is full of flesh and blood "karma houdinis" who will never be truly punished for committing horrible acts and innocent people who have been treated unfairly). As much as many of the contradictions and ironies represent the show's undeniable storytelling flaws...I believe they also represent, not always but certainly a lot of the time, what made the story interesting for me. Last edited by Xander; 2011-01-24 at 19:06. |
2011-01-24, 19:05 | Link #302 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
I guess, for one thing, it hit a little too close to home in a more trivial manner after Jay Leno screwed Conan out of the Tonight Show a year ago.
And I still think you oversimplified things a bit, blade. Revenge was only part of his overall motive behind opposing Britannia. (Ditto Nunnally, for that matter.) He wasn't without fault, but some of those things could be attributed to Diabolus Ex Machina, or in the case of the betrayal, both Schneizel being a lying bastard and Ohgi being idiotic enough to believe him and Villetta. |
2011-01-24, 19:10 | Link #303 |
Senior Member
|
wow...
just wow... i'm in awe...real life ppl get less discusion than lelouch nowadays. turns out a fictional character has more soul. the depth, the paradoxes... not to mention that lelouch was a prick. a very big one. why would anyone want to talk about him? selfish asshole really. but wait, he is so complicated, there is so much left unclarified...shit...i'm gonna go to animesuki and post my brains out!!! damn, i'm gonna get a bad rep for this post, ain't I? oh well, do as u please...
__________________
|
2011-01-24, 19:29 | Link #304 | |||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
Quote:
Fictional charaters, by their very nature, are less complex than human beings. I don't think anyone should ever assume that Lelouch has the same amount of depth as even the most disgusting and pathetic human being. This goes both for him and for any other remotely comparable fictional character in anime or Western animation and literature. The existence of a huge gap between reality and fiction is clear. However, fictional characters can be irrational, flawed and contradictory...because, guess what, people are also like that. That is, in essence, the only point of comparison I've suggested. Whether you want to call that depth or complexity is another matter. I have not used those terms myself nor have I argued that Lelouch is particularly complex in the grand scheme of things. Nope, there are certainly many others who have similar or greater amounts of it...but then again, this is still the Code Geass forum or is it not? Quote:
In addition, who said that selfish assholes and pricks can't be interesting? If they're given additional characteristics and enough screen time...sure, they certainly can be. Admittedly, a lot of that is still subjective at the end of the day. Quote:
|
|||
2011-01-24, 20:16 | Link #305 | |||
Senior Member
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
i'm listening...but really u saying u're not ashamed means u have smth to be ashamed of. justify oneself by blaming another. i'm cool with that. not really offended.
__________________
|
|||
2011-01-24, 21:07 | Link #306 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
Quote:
The point is you don't like Lelouch because his personality or actions don't match your preferences, others don't like Shinji because his personality or actions don't match their preferences. They are both incredibly flawed individuals who could afford to be assisted by a psychologist or two because their thought processes aren't very healthy or constructive. Whether or not they're entirely realistic is up for debate...but in my opinion, I'd say that all fiction can definitely get away with resorting to exaggerated portrayals if it still makes for an interesting or entertaining watch. Shinji is simply an exaggerated portrayal of character type A and Lelouch is one of character type B. In fact, one might even argue that -this being the Philosophy thread after all- it's entirely possible to find them interesting subjects of study because of their own twisted ideas about themselves and about the world, even if they're not quite meant to be flawless ideal role models. What's more, it doesn't even need to be the kind of philosophy that would make absolute sense in the real world either. Sometimes it's better to just ask good questions even if the answers are not quite as good or, for that matter, happen to be disappointing (which, I might add, can more or less apply to both of the shows in question in spite of their numerous differences). Quote:
Last edited by Xander; 2011-01-24 at 21:17. |
||
2011-01-24, 21:23 | Link #308 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
realism IS important. tell me you NEVER saw a thread in which someone would say that an anime isn't realistic enough. i've seen many of those. and philosophy is SUPPOSED to make sense...its there so u can make sense of the world around u. and i dont know whats so interesting about a person whose actions are see through, well the reasons for them once u know his past. at least shinji had the porcupine dilemma to keep it real... EDIT but uhhh, i guess i'm bs'ing u. its not that i care that much about lelouch. i just wanted to chat really.
__________________
|
|
2011-01-24, 21:57 | Link #309 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
Quote:
None of them are real because the world of Code Geass obviously doesn't exist. In practice, talking about any of them is just as ridiculous and as useless as talking about philosophy. But then again, philosophy is all about abstract interpretations and theories that exist only in the minds of the thinker, not about any physical truths and scientific realities. Even if Code Geass never really intended to present a "new" way of looking at the world and our place in it, much less develop any formal theory, we can still think about the events of the story and the concepts it used to find a few philosophical implications and have discussions about them. Why? For no reason in particular other than vague intellectual curiosity and entertainment value. It's essentially a game for those who are bored enough. Quote:
As for philosophy...I'll just add that, as part of its own historical development, many old theories are regularly discarded, criticized and considered inferior by rival schools of thought. If they all made perfect sense and could be proven right, this would not be possible. Like I indicated before, Shinji's a different kind of person and since this isn't the Lelouch thread...I'll stop there. |
||
2011-01-24, 22:03 | Link #310 |
Senior Member
|
it isn't?
god, what have i been doing and WHERE? too bad old shows aren't discarded as they should... um...i have a really strong desire to say smth like - "lets take this outside...to the shinji discussion thread". yeah well, i'm in a fun mood...
__________________
|
2011-01-24, 23:33 | Link #311 | |
wanna be graphics designr
Join Date: Jan 2011
Location: under your bed
Age: 31
|
Quote:
|
|
2011-01-25, 01:59 | Link #313 | |
Um-Shmum
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: at GNR, bringing you the truth, no matter how bad it hurts
Age: 39
|
Quote:
then again, when the guy you're up against can read minds...
__________________
|
|
2011-01-25, 02:23 | Link #314 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2008
|
Quote:
Someone recently said it would be hilarious if he were around to screw with Oghi and Villetta. Can't argue there. |
|
2011-01-25, 04:14 | Link #317 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
|
Quote:
Beyond all this, Lelouch Geassed himself to act a certain way and forget his plan, so this may have also been a factor in his behavior. |
|
2011-02-25, 13:55 | Link #318 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Feb 2011
|
Philosophy is more like human kind's gimmick to try and justify our actions through a series of complicated explanations. Does it make a difference to what we do even if we understand it? I don't think so. All we manage to produce are excuses utilizing these new found explanations to justify the actions which we're going to do anyway.
This is only my opinion. Lelouch was bored. I think that mainly sums up his stimulus. didn't someone say before that great things come out of the mundane- or something complicated of the sort? The support lines for this anime are basically: selfishness, hate, denial. In reply to most of the arguments posed (...if you're angry now, then do remember this is my unimportant and insignificant opinion and is one of a million) - without arrogance, nothing would have been achieved. There is a need for these overwhelmingly bloated egos in this world in order to make it move. Although it's hard to say forwards or backwards. Lelouch is also human. Mistakes are inevitable. It cannot be argued that he is irresponsible or delusional and things of the sort whilst claiming the evidence of such accusations are his mistakes. Then we might as well yell at ourselves whilst we stand on that almighty pedestal we've placed ourselves upon. He also has his own strange complexes which act as his own rules- having to save Nunally unconditionally, hell-bent on killing his father- but we all have those problems, don't we? He's only trying to do things as best as he can in his own way, limited by the barriers he'd placed around himself. But the result is there, no matter the reason. That alone is unquestionable. If it were you, would you have sacrificed yourself- even for your own purposes- for billions of people you know hate you down to your guts? He doesn't even expecting anything, any sort of recognition for his undeniable, ultimate sacrifice. It may be my bias for twisted, intelligent young men who have issues, but I think that Lelouch should be someone whom people admire, appreciated and are grateful for, at the very least (speaking in regards to the citizens in the anime). He's not a perfect being, and we all know he's far from that. Being human, and also being scarred in his earlier years, he's a messed up being. But he tries his best to do everything he can as he deems it should be done, keeping a grip of his ultimate goal at all times- making a better world. And he succeeded. For any who despise Lelouch- ask yourselves this. Even if you were bored, even if you had nothing to live for except a mundane future- would you have done what Lelouch had done, given up just one thing Lelouch had given up? Anyhow. If it weren't like this- then Code Geass wouldn't have been such an award winning anime, would it? |
2011-02-25, 14:05 | Link #319 | |
Shameless Fangirl
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location: Germany
Age: 34
|
Quote:
__________________
|
|
|
|