|
View Poll Results: Spice and Wolf II - Episode 3 Rating | |||
Perfect 10 | 75 | 63.03% | |
9 out of 10 : Excellent | 35 | 29.41% | |
8 out of 10 : Very Good | 6 | 5.04% | |
7 out of 10 : Good | 3 | 2.52% | |
6 out of 10 : Average | 0 | 0% | |
5 out of 10 : Below Average | 0 | 0% | |
4 out of 10 : Poor | 0 | 0% | |
3 out of 10 : Bad | 0 | 0% | |
2 out of 10 : Very Bad | 0 | 0% | |
1 out of 10 : Painful | 0 | 0% | |
Voters: 119. You may not vote on this poll |
|
Thread Tools |
2009-07-30, 16:01 | Link #181 |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Also, Amati is exceptional even by the standards of his time. When he was his age, Lawrence was barely starting out as an independent merchant. Amati's well established and very, very good at making money. So he combines the emotional instabilities of youth with the financial power of an older merchant like Lawrence or more.
OTOH, as Horo reminded in ep1, Lawrence did put his very life on the line for her. Is he so different? |
2009-07-30, 18:18 | Link #182 | ||
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
|
Quote:
Quote:
So Finally, so we may get back on track to our original point, though Horo may not FULLY understand what exactly the youth of that day is like, she understands well enough that Amati is a knight, and very idealistic lad whose preconceptions of how a man should treat a women will likely lead to foolish decisions. Because a knight is typically able to protect and serve a weak women, who may not know any better. We do know however, that Horo is a wise and intelligent being, and though she may not understand fully why Amati is spoiling her, she understands enough that herself and Lawrence can use it to their advantage, and make profit from this inexperienced youngster. |
||
2009-07-30, 19:37 | Link #183 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
You have to look around 300 AD Roman empire times at least and pick up notions from there. And I doubt you can find that many acting like knights people in there. Rome was starting collapse in all senses, in moral as well. Thats why Emperor Constantine made Christianity official religion to begin with... he needed some tool to govern during pretty bad times (and religion, Christianity in particular, looked like a good idea). So Amiati acting like knight is pretty alien to Horo a well, unless you would say that Horo is VERY old and could remember more noble times of Roman empires raising or Athens culture but even then the Knigth (or actual noble) act was different. |
|
2009-07-30, 21:52 | Link #184 |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
|
*Sigh
I never lived in tht period, yet I still understand trait of knightly and Chivalrous men. The idea of chivalry and knightly things is something that passed through all generations through literature and other stories. Also Horo most certainly knows the traits of knights, or else she wouldn' have talked about Lawrence being like hers when he stood up with the knife. I still don't understand what you trying to prove though, its pretty obvious Horo knows what shes doing and understands she's leading Amati. I don't understand the point of even bothering to bring up the Roman Empire in this, since her activity traveling during those times plays no importance as she still would have been active through the Dark Ages. It almost seems pointless to try and prove that Horo is the one being suckered by Amati, when even Lawrence, and the worry wart that he is, initially trusts Horo to stay with him through the bet. |
2009-07-30, 21:59 | Link #185 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
|
After catching up with the series, I'm totally gob-smacked amazed by this episode. The gut-wrenching ending really puts the screws to the intimate relationship between Horo and Lawrence. There's a time for business, and there's a time for personal affairs, mixing the two can be a combustible nightmare, and Lawrence has crossed that delicate line, jeopardizing his relationship. Exuberant pride can be the downfall of even a king.
Horo's fear of being alone really hit home. She is a social being (wolves are social by nature), and her precious joyous time spent with Lawrence reflects how empty her existence has been, without the presence and company of others. And with no home to return to, a new family would give her that comfort and closeness she would miss. She doesn't want Lawrence's pity. And his objection to give her a child reveals the reservations of his feelings for her and the relationship. There's a line he won't cross with her, apparently. Perhaps he considers consummation with her kind as taboo, and even unclean? Eye-opening moment. |
2009-07-30, 22:19 | Link #186 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
She could not be active during the dark ages because otherwise she wold know about the changes regarding church. I am arguing that while playing was her intent she is not particularly in control because of her lack of knowledge in this regard. Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2009-07-30 at 22:32. |
|
2009-07-30, 23:33 | Link #187 | |
Pedites Extraordinarii
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Maryland
|
Quote:
The story of his conversion to a firey-cross in the sky has different interpretations, and the earliest versions actually said he was praying to the sun-god for that sign. (later Christian figures changed this to praying to Jesus) After his conversion to Xtn, Constantine still associated himself with the sun god of ancient Roman myths and "inserted himself" with important figures in Xtnity. I'd say he did it because it was politically convenient. The empire didn't really start falling apart until later... |
|
2009-07-31, 01:18 | Link #188 | |
I disagree with you all.
Join Date: Dec 2005
|
Quote:
|
|
2009-07-31, 01:27 | Link #189 | |
Member
Join Date: Sep 2008
|
Quote:
Spoiler for Ep 4 I think Also for Volume 4..:
|
|
2009-07-31, 03:16 | Link #190 | ||||
Member
Join Date: Mar 2009
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
As Lightly_Toasted tried to explain (I guess), although Horo may not know any knights or nobles personally, she is of course familiar with menfolk and how they want to "protect their weak princess". She knows exactly how to push their buttons (especially of the naive ones), and I would bet that this is not the first time that she brings some guy to the point to spend a lot of money/wealth for her and endanger his career. PS: Horo can in fact read! Otherwise we wouldnt have had this heartbreaking scene at the end of this episode! |
||||
2009-07-31, 10:24 | Link #191 | |
Senior Member
|
Quote:
He only wanted more control trough it. His belief was never genuine so I do not see a purpose of you pointing this out because it is a well known fact. Morality (or the lack of it) was one of the aspects that made emperor have problems with control (tough it was minor compared to finances and power structures). It is not as bad as it was later, but it was there already - you can see that in historical sources. As for Lawrence and Amiati's comparisons - Lawrence's act is even more reckless than Amiati's since as Anh said he was risking is life for her, not just money, for her even though he knew her for short time. |
|
2009-07-31, 11:32 | Link #192 |
Obey the Darkly Cute ...
Author
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: On the whole, I'd rather be in Kyoto ...
Age: 66
|
Um... it was a bet as I recall. He said he'd convert if he won a battle. One of those historical die rolls. The Roman leadership was pretty pragmatic and cynical about religion.
Also, I'm a bit confused here.... Horo is supposedly about 700+ years old. We really don't have a handle on the time period for this series --- the technology, architecture, and economic structures seem to indicate roughly the period when the Medici were in their early ascent (1300-1500?). However, the position of the Church and its scope in the outlying regions seem to indicate and earlier time frame (1100-1300?). That means the Horo was born at the earliest... just after the Roman Empire fell and the roots of the Arthurian legends were beginning to flower. This seems to make the most sense - as well as to assume the author is mixing centuries a little bit. He is, after all, simply writing a good yarn of a tale.
__________________
|
2009-07-31, 11:43 | Link #193 | |
Pedites Extraordinarii
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Maryland
|
Quote:
He did say he would convert, but the idea that he said he would convert to Xtnity comes from later texts written by Xtn scholars. The contemporary texts of his time was more ambiguous. Constantine after his conversion was still a Pagan-Christian mishmash. But anywho I don't think we can compare real life time periods with S&W time periods...the development of their society might have been severely impeded. (ie. technologies or inventions from Islamic or Sinitic civilizations that helped Europe progress in real life) |
|
2009-07-31, 11:47 | Link #194 | ||
Pedites Extraordinarii
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: Maryland
|
Quote:
Quote:
The Roman civilization had a pretty good run, but all nations crumble in the end. |
||
2009-07-31, 14:36 | Link #195 | |
Member
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Warsaw, PL
Age: 46
|
Quote:
From the look of things, IMHO S&W technological level is late XVI / early XVII century (minus gunpowder), economy is more like XVII century, religious affairs are somewhat like XII century (minus Islam), and linguistically it's XXII century All above relative to Western Europe. |
|
2009-08-01, 01:17 | Link #197 | ||
Senior Member
|
Quote:
The buildings seem to indicate that it is somewhere around 1500-1600 but the Church role comes more from the earlier frame as you mentioned. historical/religious figures have two sides to their story. Quote:
But they all did collapse sooner or later. Last edited by Darknemo2000; 2009-08-01 at 01:29. |
||
2009-08-01, 02:28 | Link #198 | ||||
Former B-T Translator
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Taipei, Taiwan
Age: 37
|
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
|
||||
2009-08-01, 21:27 | Link #199 | |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: In the frozen wastes of the Province of Quebec, Canada.
Age: 48
|
Quote:
And that's without mentioning Lawrence knows their relationship is far from permanent. As far as he knows they'll find Horo's village and he'll never see her again afterwards. He doesn't know that, in her dreams, Horo would chose him over her own people. As far as he knows, there's very little truth in this legend about a giant, moon-eating bear levelling the Wolf village. |
|
2009-08-02, 10:02 | Link #200 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
|
Quote:
I agree that Lawrence wouldn't take advantage of the situation in Horo's moment of desperation. But having a child is a frightening thought for an independent peddler like Lawrence. Perhaps if he were more settled, like tending a store, then a family with children wouldn't be so far-fetched. But Horo isn't human, though she exhibits many traits and qualities of someone who is. Lawrence's life-span would be a blink of eye for Horo. Still, having a child (a demi-deity, like Hercules?) could ease the burden of loneliness in her future. Lawrence's fondness for her has deepened to the point he fears losing her after escorting her home, and she vice versa. But he has yet to confess his love to her. She apparently has an affectionate heart for him, and she has assumed he feels the same with her. And a child would be the ultimate expression of that love. So his rejection of that child is a rejection of the love she assumes they've shared. |
|
|
|