Code Geass R2 - Episode 8 Discussion / Poll

[Blackmoon042]

Originally Posted by Renegade334

Because it means manufacturing more than a million Zero disguises in a short timeframe...by and for people who are practically penniless, excluding, of course, the BKs' now extremely limited resources. I can imagine Kaguya and the Kyoto House donated some monies to create those suits but it's still a daunting task to organize all of this - that is, produce everything without bringing attention (cash flows and all that) and let everyone in on the new ploy without alerting possible Britannian spies. Even if China helped behind the scenes, it's one million clothes and masks to craft and distribute. Do you really think it can both go unnoticed or delay-free so quickly?

I was thinking that it didn't show how they managed to gather resources, but that they do have some "interesting" methods of obtaining them, or maybe C.C. was able to keep a storage of various supplies for use of the OotBK. It appears that she was able to keep the OotBK going for still about a year or so, even though (I think) they have been lying low.

[Aquaman OS]

Come on it's Lelouch here. For all we know he had one member of the Order just sitting there making costumes since ep 10 of season one in the slight chance that he would need a million costumes sometime in the future.

[Spectacular_Insanity]

The million Zeros was damn hilarious. I can't believe all the high-profile people like Lakshata were there. Anyway, quite the gambit, and was quite dependent on Suzaku being a "nice guy". I will say, however, that Suzaku's actions have placed him on my list now not so much in the "intense hate" catagory so much as the "mild dislike" catagory.

I'm still hoping an I-beam will randomly fall on Nina, though.

[KrimzonStriker]

You know I have to say I'm feeling kind of smug right now thanks to the beginning of Turn 9

[Sol Falling]

Yo, finally back. What exactly about the beginning of turn 9 makes you smug? For one thing, the architecture of the buildings shown implied a not-quite urban environment, which would contradict the conditions for a China of sweatshops. Similarly, China's declining (as opposed to rising) economic status implies that the Chinese Federation wouldn't have the kind of manufacturing monopoly that has generated so much of China's growth today.

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Yo, finally back. What exactly about the beginning of turn 9 makes you smug? For one thing, the architecture of the buildings shown implied a not-quite urban environment, which would contradict the conditions for a China of sweatshops. Similarly, China's declining (as opposed to rising) economic status implies that the Chinese Federation wouldn't have the kind of manufacturing monopoly that has generated so much of China's growth today.

Yeah, sure it does, as do the Knighmare Frames running around the street which seems to indicate they are more traditional then convinent but they still have the technologica and manufacturing capactiy to mantain their status as a world power. At the same time weren't you just complaining about how such conditions were actually a facade of modern day China's pseudo rise rather then an actual one? Also at the same time all countries go through a decline at some point, that's no indication of their manufacturing infrastructure already in place. I merely point that the conditions for such a scenario are very much there in order to bring about my scenario. Poor, destitute, but overpopulated society for a source of cheap labor production under a command system under abusive government officials but still manage to maintain a presence of power in the world, which would point to similar paths like say modern china and the old Soviet Union which sacrificed the well-bring of its people for short term economic gains and boosts in production which allowed it to gain superpower status at the time but did eventually take a toll on the country in the long term

[Var]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Yo, finally back. What exactly about the beginning of turn 9 makes you smug? For one thing, the architecture of the buildings shown implied a not-quite urban environment, which would contradict the conditions for a China of sweatshops. Similarly, China's declining (as opposed to rising) economic status implies that the Chinese Federation wouldn't have the kind of manufacturing monopoly that has generated so much of China's growth today.

One thing to note; it is shown that China is in a state of extreme poverty. If that is the case, it is not unimaginable or even unfeasible to assume that a large amount of sweatshop and cheap labor has been created in China, by outside businesses, to take advantage of the situation. That would imply that you have a large amounts of impoverished citizens struggling to make ends meet, which is confirmed by Xingke during the episode. As such, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a large cheap-market in China that could and probably would produce just about anything for the right people or for the right amount.

This is not really to support any point in this debate, but to bring to light a point.

[Sol Falling]

I want to read and catch up on all the other threads I'm following before I jump back into this debate, so it might be a bit before I reply again.

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Yeah, sure it does, as do the Knighmare Frames running around the street which seems to indicate they are more traditional then convinent but they still have the technologica and manufacturing capactiy to mantain their status as a world power. At the same time weren't you just complaining about how such conditions were actually a facade of modern day China's pseudo rise rather then an actual one? Also at the same time all countries go through a decline at some point, that's no indication of their manufacturing infrastructure already in place. I merely point that the conditions for such a scenario are very much there in order to bring about my scenario. Poor, destitute, but overpopulated society for a source of cheap labor production under a command system under abusive government officials but still manage to maintain a presence of power in the world, which would point to similar paths like say modern china and the old Soviet Union which sacrificed the well-bring of its people for short term economic gains and boosts in production which allowed it to gain superpower status at the time but did eventually take a toll on the country in the long term

I don't really understand what the point is you're making here. I believe that China isn't a real superpower, yes, but I still acknowledge that it is an enormous export economy that has expanded significantly over the past several decades. The fact that all the conditions are there as you speak of, poverty, destitution, overpopulation, but the C.F. is declining in power almost guarantees that it is missing that crucial final condition for those sweatshops and manufacturing capacity: a capitalistic environment willing to take advantage of all that labour. Like I said, if the Chinese Federation really did have the manufacturing monopoly and export economy that our China does today, then it would be a rising power, not a declining one.

Also, you might want to note that modern China is nothing like the Soviet Union. For one thing, Soviet Russia was never any sort of competition economically for the U.S.. The Cold War would have been completely onesided if it weren't for the nukes and MAD. China on the other hand isn't threatening to the U.S. militarily, but rather through the U.S.'s dependance on Chinese exports (though I'll stress again that the only danger here is that the Chinese economy might fail, because the Chinese are just as dependant on the U.S. for their own growth-- they wouldn't dare to try to sabotage them).

Originally Posted by Var

One thing to note; it is shown that China is in a state of extreme poverty. If that is the case, it is not unimaginable or even unfeasible to assume that a large amount of sweatshop and cheap labor has been created in China, by outside businesses, to take advantage of the situation. That would imply that you have a large amounts of impoverished citizens struggling to make ends meet, which is confirmed by Xingke during the episode. As such, I wouldn't be surprised if there was a large cheap-market in China that could and probably would produce just about anything for the right people or for the right amount.

This is not really to support any point in this debate, but to bring to light a point.

Extreme poverty doesn't correlate with sweatshops. You may be worked to death in a sweatshop, but you're not gonna starve. China (I presume an acceptable case study for the utilization of sweatshops) has a low standard of living, but is also the fourth largest economy in the world and has only an 8% poverty rate. The fact that the C.F. remains in poverty is a sign that nobody has taken advantage of the situation, probably because they aren't able to. The thing about capitalism (even unbridled capitalism) is that it allows everybody to do what they can, for their own sake; what seems to be the case here, what would allow the poverty to persist, is the prevention of self-interest.

Come to think of it, Chinese Federation = Soviet Russia isn't such a bad comparison after all.

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

I want to read and catch up on all the other threads I'm following before I jump back into this debate, so it might be a bit before I reply again.



I don't really understand what the point is you're making here. I believe that China isn't a real superpower, yes, but I still acknowledge that it is an enormous export economy that has expanded significantly over the past several decades. The fact that all the conditions are there as you speak of, poverty, destitution, overpopulation, but the C.F. is declining in power almost guarantees that it is missing that crucial final condition for those sweatshops and manufacturing capacity: a capitalistic environment willing to take advantage of all that labour. Like I said, if the Chinese Federation really did have the manufacturing monopoly and export economy that our China does today, then it would be a rising power, not a declining one.

Declining now yes, but at one point it was a major force to be reckoned with which was enough to allow the current Chinese Federation to remain in power despite the rot inside of it. And didn't you point to this same probability for the pseudo rise of modern day China, that the means it uses would only serve to constrain them again at some point?

Also, you might want to note that modern China is nothing like the Soviet Union. For one thing, Soviet Russia was never any sort of competition economically for the U.S.. The Cold War would have been completely onesided if it weren't for the nukes and MAD. China on the other hand isn't threatening to the U.S. militarily, but rather through the U.S.'s dependance on Chinese exports (though I'll stress again that the only danger here is that the Chinese economy might fail, because the Chinese are just as dependant on the U.S. for their own growth-- they wouldn't dare to try to sabotage them).

Economically perhaps not, but that really isn't the case in the comparison with the C.F now is it? At the same time the Soviet Union had more going for it then simply nukes, they had an overwhelming sized army that under conventional means would have seen the destruction of NATO and the U.S rather then the reverse, nukes were what gave America the edge for the most part. It also boasted an extremely strong production and manufacturing capability that while ruining its economy in the long-term allowed for a short time boost that allowed it to compete with the U.S for a time.

Extreme poverty doesn't correlate with sweatshops. You may be worked to death in a sweatshop, but you're not gonna starve. China (I presume an acceptable case study for the utilization of sweatshops) has a low standard of living, but is also the fourth largest economy in the world and has only an 8% poverty rate. The fact that the C.F. remains in poverty is a sign that nobody has taken advantage of the situation, probably because they aren't able to. The thing about capitalism (even unbridled capitalism) is that it allows everybody to do what they can, for their own sake; what seems to be the case here, what would allow the poverty to persist, is the prevention of self-interest.

At the same time the Eunuch's don't seem as closed off in terms of relations with the rest of the world even if the situation is some what frosty, at least not as much as communist china or Soviet Russia was. Compared to that market practices can and often do provide enough stimulus for them to be the ones to take advantage of it in place of unbridled capitalism, even if the effect isn't a rise but rather a decline since the sole function and ownership of wealth is directed into the hands of the Eunuch's, but the opportunity itself and scenario is still viable enough to take place under these conditions.

Come to think of it, Chinese Federation = Soviet Russia isn't such a bad comparison after all.

See? We're getting somewhere with this after all

[Var]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Extreme poverty doesn't correlate with sweatshops. You may be worked to death in a sweatshop, but you're not gonna starve. China (I presume an acceptable case study for the utilization of sweatshops) has a low standard of living, but is also the fourth largest economy in the world and has only an 8% poverty rate. The fact that the C.F. remains in poverty is a sign that nobody has taken advantage of the situation, probably because they aren't able to. The thing about capitalism (even unbridled capitalism) is that it allows everybody to do what they can, for their own sake; what seems to be the case here, what would allow the poverty to persist, is the prevention of self-interest.

Come to think of it, Chinese Federation = Soviet Russia isn't such a bad comparison after all.

Extreme poverty allows for cheap labor to be developed within a country. Judging by how 'warm' the Eunuch generals are towards Britannians, in hope of securing titles and what not, I would not be surprised if they had opened their country up to Britannian businessmen in order to bring slightly friendlier terms between the nations and ultimately lead to Schniezel's coming and the marriage of the Empress.

Depends on the sweatshop type of labor. Look at the Japanese after the Black Rebellion when they were in a state of extreme poverty while still being worked and exploited. I'm judging the possibility of cheap labor more on how Britannians have opperated in the past, not how our world economics opperates.

As for comparing the C.F. to the U.S.S.R., you might as well make note that Stalin was able to make his people move every single war-factory on the east coast (or near Moscow) to the west coast in the span of a year-ish. This was done brick by brick and is by far harder to do than making a million costumes.

[Sol Falling]

Originally Posted by KrimzonStriker

Declining now yes, but at one point it was a major force to be reckoned with which was enough to allow the current Chinese Federation to remain in power despite the rot inside of it. And didn't you point to this same probability for the pseudo rise of modern day China, that the means it uses would only serve to constrain them again at some point?

Constrain them, yes; cause them to decline, no. That's my point.

Economically perhaps not, but that really isn't the case in the comparison with the C.F now is it? At the same time the Soviet Union had more going for it then simply nukes, they had an overwhelming sized army that under conventional means would have seen the destruction of NATO and the U.S rather then the reverse, nukes were what gave America the edge for the most part. It also boasted an extremely strong production and manufacturing capability that while ruining its economy in the long-term allowed for a short time boost that allowed it to compete with the U.S for a time.

I'm not actually a history buff (one year of History 12 in highschool is the extent of my education) so I'm gonna take your word for this in the interests of focusing on the actual points of debate.

At the same time the Eunuch's don't seem as closed off in terms of relations with the rest of the world even if the situation is some what frosty, at least not as much as communist china or Soviet Russia was. Compared to that market practices can and often do provide enough stimulus for them to be the ones to take advantage of it in place of unbridled capitalism, even if the effect isn't a rise but rather a decline since the sole function and ownership of wealth is directed into the hands of the Eunuch's, but the opportunity itself and scenario is still viable enough to take place under these conditions.

See? We're getting somewhere with this after all

Why wouldn't the Eunuch's be as closed off as Soviet Russia? Didn't you just agree that Soviet Russia was a good comparison after all? :P The thing is, why would foreign powers try to take advantage of cheap labour in China if as you said the Eunuch's took all the profits? Wouldn't it simply be easier for the Eunuchs to take advantage of all the cheap labour themselves? Why not use that cheap labour to the fullest extent possible, employing every starving citizen like they are supposed to? But the fact that they remain in poverty implies that they're just ignoring them.

Originally Posted by Var

Extreme poverty allows for cheap labor to be developed within a country. Judging by how 'warm' the Eunuch generals are towards Britannians, in hope of securing titles and what not, I would not be surprised if they had opened their country up to Britannian businessmen in order to bring slightly friendlier terms between the nations and ultimately lead to Schniezel's coming and the marriage of the Empress.

Ah, but didn't Lelouch say that Britannia's cold relations with the C.F. had only been turned around in a 'moment'? That was all Schniezel's doing, and a recent development, and for the benefit for the Britannian's besides, so it would be strange for those Britannian businessmen to lend their factories for the manufacturing of a million Zero suits.

Depends on the sweatshop type of labor. Look at the Japanese after the Black Rebellion when they were in a state of extreme poverty while still being worked and exploited. I'm judging the possibility of cheap labor more on how Britannians have opperated in the past, not how our world economics opperates.

The only Japanese labour being exploited were those who were Honourary Britannians, and the only victims of extreme poverty were those who were not. Britannia isn't a good model for the C.F. anyway, and I doubt there are large swaths of Chinese who refuse citizenship from their own government. To put it simply, it still holds true that the sufferers of extreme poverty are those who don't work at all, not those who work for very little.

As for comparing the C.F. to the U.S.S.R., you might as well make note that Stalin was able to make his people move every single war-factory on the east coast (or near Moscow) to the west coast in the span of a year-ish. This was done brick by brick and is by far harder to do than making a million costumes.

Wow, that's pretty impressive. I can't quite grasp the scope of it, but it would have been a matter of national security, right? Like, the fate of the country rested on it. For such a cause, I can see the mobilization of several hundred thousand workers. Not to mention, a year is still a long time. In comparison, the Zero suits (okay, just a side note here--either you of play Brawl? Zero Suit Samus is so both hot and awsome. I set a 12 kill record in Cruel Brawl using her flipkick and tether recovery.) would have been several times less important and a three day or so schedule would have been incredibly rushed and hectic. The analogy is a bit removed in scale, so I'm not gonna take that as evidence one way or another.

[KrimzonStriker]

Originally Posted by Sol Falling

Constrain them, yes; cause them to decline, no. That's my point.

Pffftt, I don't get where you try to lead us sometimes with your train of thought Sol >_>

I'm not actually a history buff (one year of History 12 in highschool is the extent of my education) so I'm gonna take your word for this in the interests of focusing on the actual points of debate.

Interesting that I am a history buff in this case, so yes please, take my word for it

Why wouldn't the Eunuch's be as closed off as Soviet Russia? Didn't you just agree that Soviet Russia was a good comparison after all? :P The thing is, why would foreign powers try to take advantage of cheap labour in China if as you said the Eunuch's took all the profits? Wouldn't it simply be easier for the Eunuchs to take advantage of all the cheap labour themselves? Why not use that cheap labour to the fullest extent possible, employing every starving citizen like they are supposed to? But the fact that they remain in poverty implies that they're just ignoring them.

Because diplomatically they seem to strive for a more open and neutral position then Soviet Russia which geared itself more towards confrontation with the West for political dominance. Consider this, who said anything about them taking direct control? Why not simply outsource to them, in this case that also allows the Eunuch's to gain a bit of the profit and supply to a viable market to actually make profit from since their own people don't seem like the kind of reliable income in this case. And who says to be in poverty does not mean they are unemployed? Under a command economy system it was exactly that, but the conditions of diversifying the resources equally basically brought everyone into poverty level conditions anyway, except for the higher ups in control of the system who set aside most of the resources for themselves. But in terms of viable markets, the conditions are set to outsource these destitute people's efforts for the benifit of foreign markets and for the Eunuch's who can be sort of the middle-man in this arrangement.

Ah, but didn't Lelouch say that Britannia's cold relations with the C.F. had only been turned around in a 'moment'? That was all Schniezel's doing, and a recent development, and for the benefit for the Britannian's besides, so it would be strange for those Britannian businessmen to lend their factories for the manufacturing of a million Zero suits.

Once again, relations can still be frosty politically but in terms of economics they can still be maintained without much effort, especially since the C.F set itself up to try and maintain neutrality in any conflicts for the most part versus confronting Britannia directly. And who said anything about Britannian owned factories? Outsourcing to that area isn't the same as setting up shop there which doesn't match the conditions described of the place as it is. The products can simply be made and sold at a cheaper price to the businessmen who outsource to them while direct control is still maintained by the Eunuch's. and so with that direct control the possibility of manufacturing a million Zero suits is still perfectly viable if they wished to do so.

The only Japanese labour being exploited were those who were Honourary Britannians, and the only victims of extreme poverty were those who were not. Britannia isn't a good model for the C.F. anyway, and I doubt there are large swaths of Chinese who refuse citizenship from their own government. To put it simply, it still holds true that the sufferers of extreme poverty are those who don't work at all, not those who work for very little.

Now what indicates something like that? Reframe as you recall was a rampant drug amongst the elevens in general, and according to Cornelia affected production quotas amongst the labor force. Honorary Britannians often had more opportunity beyond mere factory work, and just because the Elevens don't register does not make them ineligible for forced labor conditions. At the same time if you will recall Cornelia asked during Stage 7 about what the destruction of a ghetto would do to production quotas for the sector, meaning that they do indeed utilize numbers as a part of their system and that is very in keeping with Britannia's attitude of superiority. And where the hell did this crook come from? Have you looked at the results for command systems? Was not China under such a condition where labor was divided and everyone employed but they still ended up in economic crisis until they adopted free-market and industrial policies in 1978? Sufferers of extreme poverty can be a result of lack of employment or lack of earnings from employment, both come from the same source of not having any real income to sustain any real type of standard of living except the bottom one. Making nothing and making something like a dollar certainly doesn't seem like something that would lift a person from poverty if you ask me

Wow, that's pretty impressive. I can't quite grasp the scope of it, but it would have been a matter of national security, right? Like, the fate of the country rested on it. For such a cause, I can see the mobilization of several hundred thousand workers. Not to mention, a year is still a long time. In comparison, the Zero suits (okay, just a side note here--either you of play Brawl? Zero Suit Samus is so both hot and awsome. I set a 12 kill record in Cruel Brawl using her flipkick and tether recovery.) would have been several times less important and a three day or so schedule would have been incredibly rushed and hectic. The analogy is a bit removed in scale, so I'm not gonna take that as evidence one way or another.

Why not, if one deems the situation necessary, then they can do just that. And who said it wasn't a concern for national security anyway? The Order is a terrorist group and most wanted by Britannia, whether trading them off for concessions like they did in Turn 9 or using them to fight a proxy war of some kind they can be seen as a very useful asset related to the C.F's interest. And the C.F has the largest population in the world that could probably easily answer your concerns about needing hundreds of thousands of workers. Another thing, time span in correlation to moving an entire factory system brick by brick in about a year seems rather mild in comparison to say demanding the producing a million Zero costumes in about a week or so, without the daunting prospect of enemy Panzer divisions coming right on your heels which I would imagine would make that prospect rather rushed and hectic as well... but they still managed to do it in the end, and really that's all that matters when you get right down to it. >_>