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Originally Posted by Sol Falling
All I'm getting from that is 'murdering intent'. So long as Suzaku is consistent in terms of who he's killing and why, I'm fine with it.
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One thing is to define
murdering intent, which under common definition would be to want to kill with malice afterthought and unlawful justification, though I suppose in this case Suzaku with the murdering intent is the law isn't he? In any event, at least note that the use of the word by the director himself co-notates a negative portrayal wouldn't you say? Especially if he is supposed to be the contrast of Lelouch, who displayed negative elements in front of the everyone but possess a much kinder nature beneath that, would not the contrast or opposite of this be Suzaku who while openly displaying a positive front actually has a malicious nature underneath that? Isn't that what we've seen up till now, the once cold and self-centered Lelouch who has now realized a much more idealized goal in his outlook, while Suzaku on the other-hand has now lost that initial optimism and has become extremely ruthless in turn?
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Suzaku has never claimed to be helping the Japanese out of kindness; it's just a sort of general goal he has for life, not like he has much else besides that. By 'kindness' I was referring to stuff like saving the falling woman and child in Stage 01, trying his damndest to rescue the hotel hostages, etc. Basically, stuff that can be classified as 'moral victories', as Lelouch put it. Those actions of Suzaku's have produced plenty of results.
It would probably be accurate to say that Suzaku wants to help the Japanese out of a sense of atonement, although even then he showed evidence of caring about the people as a whole before he even killed his father. In that sense, though, wouldn't having a genuine reason for wanting to help the Japanese just increase the likelihood of him going through with it? As little as Suzaku has done, thus far, Lelouch has done even less (got a bunch of elevens massacred, Area 11 demoted into a correctional area, hasn't even got his one roomed country right now) so I wouldn't say 'results' are necessarily a good measure right now.
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So what was Suzaku's motivation then, for saving doing all of this, except perhaps the one revealed by Mao? One, saving that falling woman would have amounted to squat since Britannia was cleansing the entire ghetto in the meantime, two trying his damnedest to rescue the hostages or as Mao pointed out, wanting to die? His 'moral victories' as Lelouch put it amount to just that 'moral victories did produced nothing concrete in the end, and they are further tainted by his self-centered attitude that throws into question the nature of his 'morals'
I thought he got rid of that guilt though, that sense of atonement over what he did to them and how he killed his father? Now a days, he isn't really helping them as much as suppressing them which amount to him basically saying "I'm doing it for you're own good" like he did before when he killed his father, he took his own views and force it upon them, has still been doing that ever since. As for Lelouch, he's had his ups and downs, but I wouldn't measure his accomplishments as none results, he's killed two members of the Britannian Royal family, sent fear into the heart of his enemies, destroyed entire armies worth of Britannian forces, created an organization that based on the previous results has demonstrated a very viable capability of defeating Britannia once and for all which has brought Japan hope for the first time. Even with his failures, Lelouch has accomplished far more then Suzaku, who has at best maintained the status quo with his.
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Lacking guilt doesn't make him less selfish and conceited. It would actually make him moreso, if you chose to see things that way. And any 'former hypocrisy' Suzaku used to have is still there, since neither Suzaku's beliefs nor attitudes have changed. You're speaking nonsense.
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Now, now, you're looking at it from a narrow perspective. He was always selfish and conceited, the guilt just made him more annoying as he tried to cover it up with that, now he doesn't even bother which makes his selfishness and conceit more apparent. Now he's actually committed to what he wanted to do, in the way he's always done it, without caring to say he isn't, which was the hypocrisy I was talking about, and now that he's lost that the beliefs and attitude he has had have not changed, they have become more apparent now that the veil of bull Suzaku covered it up with has lifted.
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I'm sorry? How does forcing your will onto others preclude justifying it? It's not like Suzaku blabbered on about righteousness before taking action before; whenever he had the opportunity he always just did what he thought was right. Suzaku hasn't 'lost the will to preach', he's just lost the opportunities to. Even if Suzaku isn't 'BS'ing anymore, if he had to he would go right back to 'BS'ing again, and what that constitutes is a change in situation, not character.
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You misunderstand, I was agreeing that now simply forcing his views onto others instead of trying to 'convince them' no longer means his justifying his actions which was my point. Back in Season 1 he would constantly condemn Zero at every opportunity about how he was 'wrong', while at the same time trying to defend his actions about how his fathers death would be in vain if he didn't do what he did (he used his father, who he killed and who was against exactly what Suzaku was doing as justification?) how methods could not be achieved through the wrong means and anyone and everyone. And now you're getting things confused with, when I mean will I mean desire to preach and to 'talk things out', not about circumstance, his position certainly doesn't prevent him from doing his preaching any more, the only thing that has changed is that he doesn't care too anymore now that he has the authority to simply make them obey instead of previously to listen.
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What? Condemning someone else doesn't mean you're justifying yourself, 'justify' means to provide a reason for your actions. How do you get"I am doing such and such for such and such a reason" from "The Black Knights are wrong"? And how does his motivation 'undetermine' the value of his words? Why don't you tell me what Suzaku's motivation for 'following the rules' is and then show me how that makes his desire to 'follow the rules' any less sincere. Do you really think Suzaku admits that he's a murderer, that he's a flawed being who has commited many sins, that he doesn't deserve to be Euphie's knight all to 'make himself feel better'? Seriously.
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'Because the means of the Black Knights are wrong, the means I use must be right' which is basically what Suzaku says and implied up to now, which is justification and a reason for Suzaku's actions. Did he 'follow the rules' when he killed his own father and forced peace and occupation on his people, did he 'follow the rules' when all he wanted out of them was a means to die and therefore not really accomplish anything in regards to actually making change from within like he said. And yes, did he not do just that during Episode 20, where he told Euphie he killed his father, that he committed many sins that did not give him the right to be her Knight etc.etc. in order to make himself feel better precisely because he was now confronted with the truth of it and could no longer hide from it, the only thing that would have left him satisfied was if he punished himself, which does 'make him feel better' because he now feels he got what he deserved. That's exactly what he's been doing up till now, wanting to be punished, wanting to die so he could finally free himself from his guilt, according to Mao, and according to the staff that is the truth behind his motivation.
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I've told you this before, forcing people to do the things you want and killing them for not cooperating is forcing your opinion on others. Lelouch (mostly) doesn't do this to his minions, but he does it to a hell of a lot of Britannians. And guess what, Suzaku also only does it to his enemies. Seriously, if you guys think that expressing your opinion is forcing it on other people but killing them for not having the same opinion as you isn't then there's something really wrong here.
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We're coming at an im-pass here, you can't force your opinion or for people to do something against their will if they are dead, that's disregarding they're opinion rather then forcing your own upon them because as I said a dead person has no opinion. Suzaku on the other hand, has done it to the people he claims he is helping, his fellow Japanese who are still very much alive and very much living in the pits of turmoil because of his actions. It's logical if you examine the wording, forcing means your making someone do something against they're will, you're not making anyone do anything or believe anything when you kill them because they are dead and thus have no will or belief. It's a technical argument, I know
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Yes, Suzaku would have let him go. They're friends after all. Lelouch without Zero is like a neutered puppy, can't do anything to anybody or itself. With Lelouch an utter lack of a threat, essentially a non-existance to him, why would Suzaku have to kill him or turn him in? You're probably right that he wouldn't get to see Nunally freely, maybe once a week or something to start with, but it's not like he'd be hauled off to prison or something. That's how surrender works, you know? If they give up, you don't have to kill them.
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Hah... hah, hah, hah, hah, hah, hah, hah, hah, hah, hah,!!!!! What did he do last time to his so-called friend? Sold him to the Emperor, helped rewrite his memories and was a leading part of using him as bait to capture C.C, after which he woud have been disposed of. You're killing me Sol, you really are. Do you actually believe he would have let Lelouch go on his mary way and do who knows what as Zero, like say stage a rescue for Nunnally later on, if he had revealed himself. Note that this it not the same as Lelouch 'giving up' or surrendering so don't make it out to be... and I highly doubt Suzaku would have believed it or cared to take the risk even if Lelouch had done it, that's not doing his job or following his the rules after all... >_>
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:P Krimzon, I thought you were smarter than this. If you seriously cannot even comprehend where my posts differ from yours then this is really just hopeless.
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I was half-joking and half serious Sol, chill. The thing is, you aren't the one comprehending where our posts are differing, because we are essentially arguing the same thing that Suzaku is still who he always was, that what he essentially is has not changed, just in different context. >_>
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More like I was busy and had somewhere to go...Refer to my above discussion on 'murderous intent' if you're really that curious.
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You didn't even read the rest of my statement about how he was supposed to play Lelouch's opposite and provide a contrast to his counterparts dark toned but still kind and noble nature, with his usually overly 'correct' display with 'murdering intent' underneath that. Note that they say that aspect of Lelouch is what makes him a hero, so what is Suzaku if he is the contrast to that...? <_<
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Since when has Suzaku criticized Zero's results? All he's ever condemned him for is using the wrong methods. He hasn't been implying that he's using the 'right' methods, he's been stating that outright. But anyway, that's not even my point. You said that Suzaku wasn't self-righteous as a child, and that he's now returning to a non-self-righteous personality, but as far as the standard definition of 'self-righteous' goes, his childhood persona fits better by miles.
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Beep, wrong again Sol!! If you will remember clearly he calls the results Zero obtained through his wrong means as being worthless. And yes, Suzaku has been doing that outright, wouldn't this go to prove my above point about his justification? But you're right, that's not the point, what I meant by the self-righteous attitude was more to the point of the hypocritical front, I suppose I focused too much on the righteous aspect, but this time I will clearly define that my intended statement was as previously said that as he was in Season One it's a different form of being self-righteous when he was a kid, but at the same time it maintains that arrogance and self-centered persona he had as a kid nonetheless, only doing things by the 'correct means' replaces his narrow-minded belief that he was better then Britannains as a Japanese and because he was privileged when he was a child.
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Wait wait wait. So you're saying that, even though Lelouch and Suzaku are doing the same thing to Nunally, Lelouch doesn't think it's lying while Suzaku does, and that makes Suzaku more dangerous?
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Uhh, I'll argue that this guy doesn't know what he's talking about, and that the better way of making this point is to say that Lelouch's lying is what he believes is best for Nunnally, while Suzaku on the other hand did not care what was best for Nunnally when he orchestrated that phone call, he only wanted to catch Lelouch then, and far be it that he not probably intend to take her precious oni-sama away just when she had found him should Lelouch have acted anything less then his amnesia persona... >_>
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Suzaku's a good guy. At least as much as Lelouch. That's sorta the point of having him match up so well with Lelouch, y'know: making the protagonist a complete hero and the antagonist a complete villain is bland, shallow storytelling, and most good stories aim to have complex, three dimentional characters who by being so evoke empathy. Having Suzaku have the same goals as Lelouch, the same backgrounds and level of ability plays up the drama and makes things interesting.
As for your bet, seriously, I'm willing to take it. Suzaku won't die an ignoble death (if he dies at all), and Lelouch will never get to talk down to Suzaku like he's some deluded fool working against his own dream. $50 on the former, $50 on the latter, you game? (Canadian money, though.)
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Oh no doubt, being multi-dimensional and complex is good for the interest in the characters, but there are traits that are the more essential element in identifying each of their character make-up, a key motivation if you will that when you get back down to it is where all their other multi-faceted personalities revolve around. And while we do see a lot of similarities in terms of goals, background, and abilities, we have also been shown very extensively that they have a very key difference in terms of mindset of methods which is very much the most necessary element in playing up this drama and the interest by showing how two people who should have come together managed to drift so far apart.
You guys can keep your bet, I'm not making any predictions on anything, I simply make observations
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Originally Posted by Sol Falling
All Suzaku said after Lelouch returned the phone was "I'm sorry. I seem to have caused a misunderstanding." And regardless of whether or not he told Nunally he'd let her speak to Lelouch, he actually did end up doing that, so that wouldn't be a lie. Direct evidence wise, Suzaku hasn't lied any more to Nunally than Lelouch has. But that's beside the point.
The point is, Suzaku seems to be keeping Nunally in the dark right now for her own best interest (and maybe even Lelouch's). Telling Nunally about Zero's identity would inevitably lead to telling her about (what Suzaku knows of) the SAZ, which would likely be enough to cause her to stick with her plan, meaning Suzaku's interests are not threatened. Given this reasoning, it would be a bit of a jump for Suzaku, who thus far has been protecting Nunally, to suddenly do something 'worse'.
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Yes it is, the point is that he got her hopes up, he used her in order to catch Lelouch, disregarding the fact that she would be emotionally crushed in either getting her hopes up and pretending otherwise if Lelouch had chosen to feign ignorance (or as Suzaku later noted, suspect that Suzaku might have lied about what has happened with her brother, what he's done to him, because honestly how do you mistake someone as Lelouch and someone who has the same voice?) Or ripping them apart afterwards, and do not give me that bull about simply letting Lelouch go, hell no do I believe that even had remotely successful odds of happening. Another memory rewrite, a prison cell, or an execution, but letting him go? Not only is that contrary to his duty as a KoR serving the Emperor and Britannia, but it'd be just plain stupid because who knows what Lelouch might do should he be allowed to roam about freely... >_>
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Originally Posted by Eliarine
Sorry for interrupting such a wonderful debate, but I'm not dropping the issue.
KrimzonStriker: I was not exaggerating. You were adressing Sol Falling's amazement at people saying Suzaku was turning into a monster with a quote implying it was his true nature. I simply asked for a clarification of things. Thanks for quoting the exact words, but I still don't see how they imply that Suzaku is supposed to turn into a 100% evil bastard yet. Nothing is that clear-cut in this series, if you're willing to accept Lelouch as a grey character, stop trying to put Suzaku in the "OMG Evil" category.
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Lelouch is that grey character, so is Suzaku, I simply point out which of them is slightly lighter then the other in terms of shading
Basically, while not the whole picture of what the characters are like, it helps imply the core nature of their characters and what they built everything else up on, but in essence this is still the most essential aspect of their make-up and in which direction the staff wants to eventually portray them as.
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And I'm the one exaggerating? You're judging his whole character on the way he reacted to Lelouch's arrival at Kururugi shrine, making it sound like Lelouch was the perfect angel that changed evil Suzaku into a normal kid. Lelouch was not that better then, yet you're only mentionning his good traits as a child, the same way you're only mentionning Suzaku's faults. Reading your "analysis" of kid!Suzaku makes me feel like you only listened to the first Sound episode and stopped there.
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Wow, are you saying Lelouch was a bad kid or something? I don't see that, could you point out where exactly? I mean, what did he do to make you pissed as a kid, trying to be a good brother? Of course I listened to the other sound episodes, I simply wanted to go back to the origin of who they were and still are underneath everything they've done, which is basically my whole point in that there are core aspects that help define each of their characters once you strip everything else to it's most basic form.
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Yes, when he first meets Lelouch, Suzaku acts like a brat. But he also happens to run away in shame when he notices Nunally is blind, after Lelouch attacks him. Yes, he acts arrogant when Lelouch is bullied, but he also saves his butt right there and then. He was the one who made Nunally (and Lelouch) smile and laugh for the first time after their mother was murdered. He was the one who answered "Japanese, Britannians, what does it matter!? If I want to look for her then I'm looking for her!" to Lelouch's "Won't you Japanese please keep your opinions to yourselves?" And if he can apologize to Lelouch and cry about his story after less than an hour spent with Nunally, then I'm sorry but I can't really see him as anything but a kind-hearted kid. Are you trying to tell me Suzaku was a horrible person his whole childhood, and that his good traits only magically appeared with Lelouch's arrival? They were not that different as children, just like they are not that different now. Stop trying to put everyone in boxes and leaving them there.
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When Lelouch attacked Suzaku it was out of concern for his sister's emotional well-being while Suzaku acted based on his own arrogant superiority. Of course events happened that would later cause the characters to evolve over time to the point where you think they were completely a reverse of who they started out as in the beginning, but what I am stressing they are not as different now then as they were as children.
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And before you attack me with a thousand quotes making Suzaku an eeeeeviiiiiiil child, I'll have you note that I'm not saying he's an angel - because he most certainly isn't - just trying to balance things a little, because you're trying too hard and your bias is showing.
[EDIT] Ah yes, we're getting a little off-topic there. Sorry! ^^;
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Bias? I'm trying to make you understand the intentions put into the characters the staff made when they wrote them and put them on screen. This isn't about me or my feelings on Suzaku, it is theirs! There is no such category as absolute good or evil, I'm just saying he's an ass, but not eeevvvviiiilllll (as I often try to do with Nunnally) Hell, I can't call Charles eeevvviiiillll even for his social Darwinism, but I still think he's an ass
It's not really off-topic I feel, the origin of the discussion was the change in Lelouch and how I moved to support that this was a step toward showing his real self and nature from the overly dark persona he's displayed most of the time up to now in the series, versus the changes in the once 'righteous' Suzaku who always said he would pursue things through the correct means, but has as of late been pushing the envelop quite a bit in that regards to how he usually acts. Basically, it's a reversal for the two characters, both in terms of the roles they played against each other and going back to who they both essentially are, which I believe will provide more substance in why and how they will conduct themselves in future episodes.
So, no, he'd have hauled Lelouch in to get his memories rewritten again, if that wasn't possible then throw him in prison and even more likely execute him, thus breaking dear old Nunnally's heart This isn't about egos, or about Nunnally (which is my point), this was about Suzaku wanting to catch Lelouch and not caring about anything else >_>
Artist
Lelouch's character portrayl thus far has one that has been able to acknowledge, respond, and make-up for what he has done, while with Suzaku we had to do it through a mind-probe to see the crux of his problem as to why he's an ass. In this case I suppose Lelouch's character portrayl made him seem more honest, at least to us and himself about who he is, while with Suzaku I'm just seeing things buit on lie after lie. I myself just said that both of them were grey, I'll agree with you on that, but the main question is 'well then, in the end who are they'? 
