(CR) Hibike! Euphonium Season 3

[Anh_Minh]

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

I hate to be the contrarian... or on the other hand, maybe I don't ... but I found myself agreeing with Reina more than I disagreed with her.

When you're in a middle-management position, which is effectively what the president, vice-president, and drum major are, it's your job to support the leadership's decision in front of the troops. If they see you being negative or argumentative, then they'll feel like they have permission to be that way too, and the team's entire structure and cohesion begins to break down.

Kumiko has supported Taki's decision as much as she could, except to Reina, who's also "middle management" and therefore doesn't count.

And the leadership as done a poor job (or rather, none) of explaining the decisions, which wouldn't be great for actual management with professionals, and downright terrible for a teacher with students.

I'm also getting really annoyed with Mayu. Kumiko has enough going on, why does she have to comfort the winner on top of everything?

[Infinite Zenith]

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

When you're in a middle-management position, which is effectively what the president, vice-president, and drum major are, it's your job to support the leadership's decision in front of the troops. If they see you being negative or argumentative, then they'll feel like they have permission to be that way too, and the team's entire structure and cohesion begins to break down.

If you disagree with the leadership's decision, then you take it to the leadership privately and hash it out, which is just what Kumiko did. I'd been waiting for her to do that for half the episode.

We're in agreement, although I have a feeling many here will probably not be convinced. I previously presented the thought that Kumiko's way of leadership is no different than that of Captain Miller from Saving Private Ryan. People look up to leadership for organisation and morale; if things are bad but the leaders are calm and composed, a bad situation might not look quite as bad, and people can carry on. If Kumiko were crapping bricks and losing composure, it'd be tough for the juniors to rally around her. Despite everything that's happening, to the point where Kumiko's own sense of self is challenged, she's done a great job of keeping it together as president.

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

Now, did I agree with Reina on everything? No. She lost her temper with Kumiko, but that was very much her stubborn nature at work. It will sort itself out in time.

This is why when Reina says Kumiko is "a failure of a president", I got the sense she was lashing out because in that moment, she felt threatened. Kumiko challenging Noboru's judgement was something that completely went against what had expected from Kumiko, someone who'd come to be there for her without fail until now. Again, you are right on the money: a healthy friendship is give and take. It's not just accommodating everything all the time, it's about understanding where to set boundaries and give honest feedback. A genuine friendship can take this without fracturing.

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

Mayu is not going to give up the solo part on her own. That would let Kumiko off the hook. If Kumiko is going to play the solo at Nationals - and we all know she is - then she will have to find it within herself to get the job back. She wouldn't be the hero of the story if she didn't.

I think there is another way to handle the solo roles in an elegant manner, one that doesn't have Mayu stepping from the soli voluntarily and allows Kumiko to uphold her commitment to merit over nepotism. The fact that Reina and Kumiko were favourites, and there's been an emphasis on more than one instrument each time a solo comes up, means that selecting people boils down to chemistry between two players, rather than the individual skill. If a band is playing a piece that has a soloist performing completely unaccompanied, then yes, Kitauji's approach is fine.

However, we have a duet section in the song, and that means in order to really see what works, one would need to see how different combinations of soloists perform together, similarly to juggling lineups in hockey to see which players have better chemistry together. It's not uncommon for slightly-less talented goal-scorers to be paired with goal-scorers on a first line if they are good playmakers, for instance. As such, I find that once Kitauji has their chosen musicians selected for competition, the best are then selected to audition together, and the soloists are selected against how they play together, rather than individually. There is certainly no need for Mayu to give up things on her own, and given that Noboru's adopted a hands-off approach, all of Kitauji's successes insofar have been the result of their own effort and choices. Thus, asking him to intervene now is no different than using scissors to "help" a butterfly trying to liberate itself of its cocoon.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Dextro

My bet is that Taki has been experimenting with different ways of organizing the ensemble either to appeal to the judges or to try and find that special thing that will get them the win at the Nationals.

I agree. To add to that, objectively Taki is probably feeling a bit anxious and hasty. At the beginning of his term, Kitauji as a team had many problems and the average quality of applicants is lower, but it had the luck of having several star players. In the succeeding years as a team Kitauji has solidified, but the star players like Misore, Kaori and Asuka had graduated. Reina and Midori are graduating this year and at that point I think Kitauji had ran out of star players of note. No matter how solid Taki makes his team next year, the other teams at the National level are just as solid and while the solo by the ace isn't that heavy a portion of the score when everyone is solid the ace is the edge to win. So he probably really wants to nail it this year.

maybe he's playing 4D chess and trying to get the group to face their own failings but, honestly, we've never seen the character be particularly aware of interpersonal issues before so it would be out of character to start now.

I tend to side with this too. Taki really isn't some sage. Of course, he knows music best of all the major characters, but even his ability as a conductor and band director compared to his peers is an unknown. As for his people skills ... his final solution in the first season had to be hinted by the regular teacher. Even then, I don't think he expected to have to pull out that last card - he probably expected people to just realize how superior Reina is and side with her. Unfortunately, music is not food in a culinary anime where even the most stubborn can be led to say "Delicious!" if the food is good enough.

TBH, Taki screwed up here. Kanade is right that if he is firm in wanting more bass he should just have went for the 4-tuba formation on Audition One. In elevating Suzume over Satsuki rather than just expanding the section, one consequence is that he set a precedent of clearly selecting by criteria other than the overall quality of the player. That makes the logic of his decisions less traceable by the masses and forces them to rely more on faith. When that faith runs out the problems come out.

Originally Posted by Anh_Minh

I'm also getting really annoyed with Mayu. Kumiko has enough going on, why does she have to comfort the winner on top of everything?

Well, actually Mayu is a little better this week than last week. I can understand her dilemma in the first scene. There's nothing she can choose there - refuse the seat, ask for the seat, or even silence - that cannot be given an Adverse Interpretation. Her center scene is just rubbing salt in the wound, but at least she learnt to quit when told in the last scene. For Mayu, that's progress.

Besides, we have Reina to talk about this week. Let's just point out while reasonable tension is a good thing, there is a distinction to be made between positive and negative tension. Everyone else is pointing out there's too much of the latter, and Reina is the only one that seems incapable of making the distinction. I'd also point out that any additional progress that was made this year compared to the last was before the rather controversial decisions Taki made. The threat of additional auditions may have done more good than harm, but the results of the current auditions may yet reverse that entirely.

Reina spends this week being very defensive of Taki and lashing out at anyone who questions him - even as she herself cannot articulate exactly why Kumiko or any of the others lost. Besides, she raised the question - if you ask a question, you must steel yourself to accept any predictable answer. Don't snap just because you don't like the answer.

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Originally Posted by Infinite Zenith

I think there is another way to handle the solo roles in an elegant manner, one that doesn't have Mayu stepping from the soli voluntarily and allows Kumiko to uphold her commitment to merit over nepotism.

I don't intend to complain if that turns out to be the solution. However, I'd point out that first, this is changing the rules in the middle of the game, and the definition of merit itself, with the conditional intent of benefitting the Executive members, so this is still nepotism.

Another reason they don't do this is the strong potential for abuse. In this scenario, there is only one viable trumpeter and two viable euphonists. Reina can easily slightly throw her performance with Mayu off if that's what she wants to do. You might as well just ask Reina who she wants to work with. After all, at that point she would have tried both.

[FlareKnight]

This was a heavy episode. But I'm glad Kumiko is going to talk to Taki in private. It's the best thing she can do. Honestly on some level I think the leadership group having a chat with Taki after each audition should have been booked into the strategy. People need some level of guidance and the leadership needs to be able to offer some answers when appropriate. When all they can do is keep calm and saying "trust the process" it's going to lead to some emotional struggles within the group.

I hadn't thought about it, but Taki probably is feeling the pressure. Without some absolute star power coming in next year they are going to take a huge hit in terms of ability when losing Kumiko, Reina, Midori, Mayu, etc. There will be good players like Kanade left, but next year's Kitauji without a huge win to draw in applicants probably won't be all that great. Honestly even if the applicants are good next year is probably a lost year when it comes to the transition to a newer star group that hopefully appears.

But I do think that he's trying really hard to tweak around the edges and it's having huge emotional struggles within the group. Even his friend I felt was trying to send the message. That a key part is enjoyment and fun. Making choices the way Taki has somewhat ignores the human element in all this. It's hard to balance all the factors and elements. But if the difference between Kumiko and Mayu is extremely narrow then making the choice that leaves most individuals satisfied would be fine. Because is anyone outside of that one girl that actually is close to Mayu going to remotely doubt the decision?

With Kanade I kind of question the audition method a little. It feels as if Taki is really unsure how he wants to handle the tubas and is trying cutting a little on the euphos to bolster the tubas to see how that works. Changing the overall setup of the band on a feeling like that means being locked into something he doesn't even know if it will be better. It's almost better to have the freedom to change the formation even without auditions to try and find the right fit.

[Dr. Casey]

Can't agree with the pro-Reina posts. I think both Kumiko's and Reina's viewpoints are valid, but Kumiko handled herself almost perfectly whereas Reina handled herself so poorly that she's almost completely undermined whatever valid points she might have had. Disciplining the three girls for the crime of having a private conversation in a seemingly secluded area and being overheard? Lashing out at Kumiko for maturely and politely expressing a viewpoint that - even if you ultimately agree with Reina - is perfectly reasonable? She's being a control freak that gets mad any time anyone feels differently from her. I get that she has her own emotional turmoil and all but she still owes Kumiko an apology and a calmer, less one-sided discussion. I'd feel like I was walking on eggshells with her if you can't discuss anything of important with her without her getting mad.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by Dr. Casey

Can't agree with the pro-Reina posts. I think both Kumiko's and Reina's viewpoints are valid, but Kumiko handled herself almost perfectly whereas Reina handled herself so poorly that she's almost completely undermined whatever valid points she might have had. Disciplining the three girls for the crime of having a private conversation in a seemingly secluded area and being overheard? Lashing out at Kumiko for maturely and politely expressing a viewpoint that - even if you ultimately agree with Reina - is perfectly reasonable? She's being a control freak that gets mad any time anyone feels differently from her. I get that she has her own emotional turmoil and all but she still owes Kumiko an apology and a calmer, less one-sided discussion. I'd feel like I was walking on eggshells with her if you can't discuss anything of important with her without her getting mad.

I'm pretty much with you here. There are some valid points from Reina. But sadly that'd only be the case if her motivation wasn't entirely based on being in love with the person that's being criticized. She's so emotionally compromised that it eats away at the credible parts of her arguments.

She's certainly right in a few spots. If they don't trust the person directing them then it's likely to all fall apart. And open arguments could easily spiral out of control. And there's room to argue that they should focus on those that are ready to chase the goal and not those in full disagreement. I don't agree with her position (especially on a long-term perspective) but it's a position she can have.

Reina is being unreasonable and close to a dictator. Kumiko despite all she's got going on was honest with Reina in a measured way. Now she wasn't honest the whole time, but that partly comes from trying not to poke the bear. But all she got was insults. She's a failure of a president for listening to the concerns of those below her and not being blindly loyal? She's put a lot of legitimate faith behind Taki. And she's not discounting that he might be making the right choice. Kumiko is just making the point that it's not clear what he's thinking and that gap between him and the band isn't a good thing. Reina is taking that as a direct insult towards the person she likes and went way too far. Treating Kumiko's doubts as an insult to both Taki and to herself who has absolute blind faith.

Love is blind and Reina is very much in love. Honestly the ball is in Reina's court. She should be the one apologizing for going way too far. Kumiko is doing the right thing in talking to Taki and seeking to understand him.

[larethian]

I see comments talking about Taki may be experimenting in preparation for the Nationals, on reddit as well. Frankly, I doubt that. He's more likely on edge trying to clear Kansai stage with his choices, rather than merely experimenting. Experimenting implies they have the leeway to do that, which is quite unlikely. Iirc, only 3 spots out of 24 schools can qualify for Nationals from Kansais, and unless this year's Kansai entrants are so bad, they have no room for experimentation. It'd be all over if they 'lose'. Every stage is a deathmatch, for lack of a better word.

[BBOvenGuy]

Originally Posted by Infinite Zenith

People look up to leadership for organisation and morale; if things are bad but the leaders are calm and composed, a bad situation might not look quite as bad, and people can carry on.

I'm a Quality Engineer, and that is very much my role when the regulatory system audits come around. There are also times when I feel like my job is to be a walking security blanket. The factory workers know their jobs and are plenty capable of doing them, but sometimes it helps to have someone from Quality standing there making sure everything turns out right. I have to go all the way to Mexico at the end of this month for that very purpose, in fact.

[Infinite Zenith]

Originally Posted by BBOvenGuy

I'm a Quality Engineer, and that is very much my role when the regulatory system audits come around. There are also times when I feel like my job is to be a walking security blanket. The factory workers know their jobs and are plenty capable of doing them, but sometimes it helps to have someone from Quality standing there making sure everything turns out right. I have to go all the way to Mexico at the end of this month for that very purpose, in fact.

As a software developer, I take reassurance knowing that there's QA to catch the things I don't account for, like regression and how changes I implement have knock-on effects in part of a software I hadn't previously worked with. I still strive to make sure the solutions I produce meets specifications and operational needs, but given the complexity of systems, having a composed and calm QA means I can rest knowing that if something small slips by me, there's a chance to catch it before the customers ever see it. Even when my oversight does cause regressions or a crash, QA never panics, and this means I am just given the facts and able to get to work fixing things right away. It also helps our management is solid: they plan things out well enough even when it's crunch time, I never feel pressured to rush a solution. At my last position, though, I was both QA and a developer, so it was actually quite stressful, and in a strange turn of fates, it was also my job to keep cool even when the app was blowing up and ensure the founder was in the know as to what was happening. As far as I'm concerned, Kumiko's done a solid job in this regard.

Originally Posted by arkhangelsk

I don't intend to complain if that turns out to be the solution. However, I'd point out that first, this is changing the rules in the middle of the game, and the definition of merit itself, with the conditional intent of benefitting the Executive members, so this is still nepotism.

Another reason they don't do this is the strong potential for abuse. In this scenario, there is only one viable trumpeter and two viable euphonists. Reina can easily slightly throw her performance with Mayu off if that's what she wants to do. You might as well just ask Reina who she wants to work with. After all, at that point she would have tried both.

In order to eliminate (not reduce) the potential for suggesting my approach is open to abuse, or that it's somehow changing the rules (they won't), allow me to elaborate. In the realm of medical trials, there's something known as the double-blind, in which the subject doesn't know if they're receiving a placebo or a treatment, and the clinician doesn't know which the patient is getting. We can use a variant of this here.

Applying this to our minimum set of applicants, we have Reina + Kumiko (Trial A) and Reina + Mayu (Trial B). To ensure things are fair, you'd bring in a third party (e.g. Michie or another teacher) to hold onto to which trial maps to which results. Instead of having Noboru personally oversee the actual audition, we have our third party record the results of each audition. If time is short, we can only do one run, although I'd prefer a minimum of three runs, and five runs to be sure. The recordings are then marked as Trial A and Trial B, and sent to Noboru for evaluation. If we really want to lessen bias, having Mashiro and Satomi evaluate every run, and then averaging their scores with Noboru's would be appropriate. Once the final scores are produced, we'd have enough of a metric to decide which pairing worked better. We suppose that the recording and playback devices are of a sufficient quality and consistency as to not be a problem.

Because Noboru has no idea of who's playing in the trials, it's up to him to now go with which one he sounds better. In this way, if Kumiko ends up having better chemistry than Mayu, then she gets picked. If Mayu's better, then she'll play. This is not what nepotism looks like because I've completely removed Noboru's awareness of who's playing. No favourites can be played, and this method does not give Kumiko an edge. As such, there can be no nepotism here, unless we are going to delve into what constitutes as nepotism.

Further to this, this is not changing the rules: in the scientific method, experimental methodologies can and are changed to ensure they can adequately test a hypothesis. In fact, leaving a method unchanged in light of new information will produce flawed data that cannot produce any meaningful conclusions; in science, an experiment is valid so long as the methods are consistent when applied to answer a specific question, and the appropriate variables are held constant. This is hardly changing the rules: my proposal, if anything, creates a more rigorous process that would produce results that Mayu and Kumiko can agree with.

[scififan]

Originally Posted by FlareKnight

Love is blind and Reina is very much in love. Honestly the ball is in Reina's court. She should be the one apologizing for going way too far. Kumiko is doing the right thing in talking to Taki and seeking to understand him.

Someone mentioned that Reina's idolization cannot be called love. She has known him and became attached to him. He was talented. According to the girls in the band, Taki is good looking. His charming image breaks down once he starts the instruction. The band gave him a bad nickname. For some unknown reason, Reina hasn't changed her first impression. She is still too timid to get close to him.

Kumiko has no problem to strike a friendly conversation with Taki any time. They almost hit off at the flower shop. Someone mentions that Kumiko did not question Taki immediately is a Japanese culture thing. Getting clear message across may cause a conflict, so Taki and Kumiko tend to be ambiguous. Kumiko thinks what happened to her is unjust, and her band members agree and tell her about their support. Kumiko is reluctant to act because she is in the same environment as Kaori.

Kumiko finally decides to ask Taki about her doubt. The voice actresses on the radio show talked about it. One VA says her school conductor has the open door policy for answering students' doubt. It is not so open during competition. Students do not know why their school doesn't get the gold.

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[larethian]

Originally Posted by scififan

Someone mentioned that Reina's idolization cannot be called love. She has known him and became attached to him. He was talented. According to the girls in the band, Taki is good looking. His charming image breaks down once he starts the instruction. The band gave him a bad nickname. For some unknown reason, Reina hasn't changed her first impression. She is still too timid to get close to him. Kumiko has no problem to strike a friendly conversation with Taki any time. They almost hit off at the flower shop. Someone mentions that Kumiko did not question Taki immediately is a Japanese culture thing. Kumiko finally decides to ask Taki about her doubt. The voice actresses on the radio show talked about it. One VA says her school conductor has the open door policy for answering students' doubt. It is not so open during competition. Students do not know why their school doesn't get the gold.

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All I'm seeing is boob size growth. But then again, it's Kyoani, maybe boob size growth is another way of reiterating Kumiko's growth

[scififan]

It could be. Reina's mental state may never grow in the show. The reality of living as a musician will change her.

[arkhangelsk]

Originally Posted by Infinite Zenith

Further to this, this is not changing the rules: in the scientific method, experimental methodologies can and are changed to ensure they can adequately test a hypothesis. In fact, leaving a method unchanged in light of new information will produce flawed data that cannot produce any meaningful conclusions; in science, an experiment is valid so long as the methods are consistent when applied to answer a specific question, and the appropriate variables are held constant. This is hardly changing the rules: my proposal, if anything, creates a more rigorous process that would produce results that Mayu and Kumiko can agree with.

I, uh, would really like to see them try to turn this elaborate experiment into anime.

While they are at it, they can see if they can flesh out your plan. For example, they can find a way to keep Reina from knowing if she's playing with Kumiko or Mayu. Because if she knows who's she playing with, Reina can choose simply by deliberately playing slightly worse with one or the other (that's what I'm referring to, not Taki's abuse).
If she's in a situation where she actually has competition, that's another thing, but we all know Reina's the only viable trumpeter for the solo which makes her the kingmaker. Taki can hardly bench her. Oh, and we have to somehow do this while keeping this a test of chemistry - implying that they can hear and see each other to make real time adjustments.

The second point of doubt is whether you can double blind Taki. Imagine your double blind clinical test, but before the test the patients have been fed both the Real Pills and the Placebo Pills, clearly labeled which is which, for months. Do you think they might be able to tell which pills they are getting by say slight differences in the flavor? Similarly, beyond good and bad, Mayu and Kumiko will have places where they are just different, or have different areas of strength and weaknesses.

YouTube

https://youtu.be/S6SIyyVyO8I

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Did you have the discernment to tell those differences? That's the difference in discernment ability between non-musicians and musicians.

We are deaf to them, but as their teacher and professional musician Taki (his specialty is brass, if I recall correctly) should be familiar with their peculiarities. So how would KyoAni successfully double blind Taki, without creating an implication that he isn't so hot a musician after all because he lacks the discernment to tell between two of his students?

Third, if anything, this ever more elaborate experiment creates a larger accusation of nepotism than before. Before, at least one can say if Taki is nepostic, he'd have favored Kumiko because she's closer to him than this newcomer. He just rightly or wrongly applied weird standards beyond the understanding of his students and w/o giving them fair warning to respond (I want loud, people. Forget Tone Quality and Emphasize Loud in your auditions).
But was anybody even proposing we need to do this kind of elaborate experiment back when Kumiko was winning? Did the proposer have an expectation that this would be more advantageous to Kumiko?
If it's just a more casual change maybe Taki and the student leaders can still somehow brush it off as trying something new, but the more elaborate things are the harder it is to keep this line plausible. I'd like to see how KyoAni would deal with that.

[Marina2]

Base on what we've heard about Mayu ability, Mayu can probably adjust her play sound to suit with Reina if she wants so unless Kumiko skill become clearly better, she has low chance to win even if they do audition again right now.

Kumiko and the band will have to cheer on Reina-Mayu pair to perform as good as or even greater than Reina-Kumiko in order to reach national. But if the band does succeed to with its current line up, doesn't that mean Taki's choice is correct?