AnimeSuki Forum - View Single Post - Macross Delta the Movie 2: Absolute LIVE!!!!!! Discussion Thread

HirouKeimou · 2021-07-11, 01:51

@Nachtwandler: This is the wrong thread for discussing Frontier so I'm gonna end here by saying this: I think you misunderstood my initial response.

You initially (and still kind of are) arguing an unresolved love triangle is a reason for a TV series feeling anti-climatic in its conclusion; it's not a valid reason. In fact, a lot of people on here could surely argue the lack of a definitive conclusion for the love triangle in 7 (or even how absurdly obvious it was) did not ruin the ending's climatic feel for anyone. The difference is, in 7, a lot of the plot related stuff regarding the villains and consequences of the characters choices were resolved, if not in the TV series then in the OVA which followed closely after. Meanwhile, Frontier had a TV series and a set of movies retelling the TV series story in a completely different context. So all of the stuff like what happened to the villains and if any of the characters choices throughout the show affected their ability to even live on Frontier was left for a sequel it would never receive. This is sometimes lazy writing if you're never planning on adding anything to a preexisting universe. For instance, we'll never hear from SDF-1 again; they're likely dead by now but at some point people used to wonder.

For the love triangle though, it was likely either a conscious decision to not stir up discourse or a marketing decision to promote the movies which were literally announced after the TV series concluded (or extremely close). Long before the TV series concluded, they knew they were doing a movie for it (unlike Delta where they initially hoped for a movie). So they likely left it open-ended because it could sell the movies for people really wanting to find out which girl won. And it worked for a lot of people. And sadly, it also resulted in extreme discourse amongst fandom because obviously both sides had been heated from like the beginning of the TV series.

And I think that's why Delta didn't really hide the love triangle's conclusion from day one. Imagine trying to sell a new series based on old tropes people were obviously beginning to tire of (at the time). Clearly, Kawamori believed what he'd slapped together would sell; and if the series had been only those beginning thirteen episodes, it likely would've sold hotly. Sadly, when the "movie deal" he initially wanted for the final half of Delta fell through, he decided to add everything, basically everything, into the second half of Delta's TV series. And oh boy, I'm glad he did it there and not in the movies because could you imagine having no context for why anything on screen is happening? The only downside to this is unlike Frontier, he resolved the love triangle; so now he's gonna have to sell Delta's movies based on the plot and singing alone, and Delta is performing alright in Japan, but it's not near the levels of Frontier.

And sadly, all of this talking about the short-comings of his series has dug up my repressed memories of his older works. If you were to go back and watch the first Sousei no Aquarion, it's an utter mess of a show even for someone like me who watched it years ago. Trying to figure out what's going on based on the in-universe lore before you even account for how EVOL and Logos changed and added things (oh, and the movie and spin-off OVA, we can't forget), likelihood is you'll think the man is crazy. The fact he never planned for sequels back then is insane considering how much of that series is a freaking crash course in all the wrong writing choices. It's entertaining, yes; sort of like how Guilty Crown is pretty to look at till you watch it with a critical eye; but it's got a lot of camp, and a lot of characters make dumb or sometimes outright ridiculous decisions for the sake of advancing the plot and all of it feels very forced in areas. This is why I always felt EVOL was a bit of an improvement over Sousei no Aquarion, because at least the main leads had progression that felt fitting of their characters on average vs. forced development for plot progression. But it's always kind of been Kawamori's thing: To force characters into situations you naturally would think is against a character's personality simply so he can advance a plot. And Delta's no exception to this, in fact, it's like the best example in the form of Mikumo and Hayate at points. And it's freaking annoying, to be honest. But it's less intrusive overall because it never affects the outcome of the plot whereas it did in his older works.

2021-07-11, 01:51	Link #82
HirouKeimou Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2016 Location: United States	@Nachtwandler: This is the wrong thread for discussing Frontier so I'm gonna end here by saying this: I think you misunderstood my initial response. You initially (and still kind of are) arguing an unresolved love triangle is a reason for a TV series feeling anti-climatic in its conclusion; it's not a valid reason. In fact, a lot of people on here could surely argue the lack of a definitive conclusion for the love triangle in 7 (or even how absurdly obvious it was) did not ruin the ending's climatic feel for anyone. The difference is, in 7, a lot of the plot related stuff regarding the villains and consequences of the characters choices were resolved, if not in the TV series then in the OVA which followed closely after. Meanwhile, Frontier had a TV series and a set of movies retelling the TV series story in a completely different context. So all of the stuff like what happened to the villains and if any of the characters choices throughout the show affected their ability to even live on Frontier was left for a sequel it would never receive. This is sometimes lazy writing if you're never planning on adding anything to a preexisting universe. For instance, we'll never hear from SDF-1 again; they're likely dead by now but at some point people used to wonder. For the love triangle though, it was likely either a conscious decision to not stir up discourse or a marketing decision to promote the movies which were literally announced after the TV series concluded (or extremely close). Long before the TV series concluded, they knew they were doing a movie for it (unlike Delta where they initially hoped for a movie). So they likely left it open-ended because it could sell the movies for people really wanting to find out which girl won. And it worked for a lot of people. And sadly, it also resulted in extreme discourse amongst fandom because obviously both sides had been heated from like the beginning of the TV series. And I think that's why Delta didn't really hide the love triangle's conclusion from day one. Imagine trying to sell a new series based on old tropes people were obviously beginning to tire of (at the time). Clearly, Kawamori believed what he'd slapped together would sell; and if the series had been only those beginning thirteen episodes, it likely would've sold hotly. Sadly, when the "movie deal" he initially wanted for the final half of Delta fell through, he decided to add everything, basically everything, into the second half of Delta's TV series. And oh boy, I'm glad he did it there and not in the movies because could you imagine having no context for why anything on screen is happening? The only downside to this is unlike Frontier, he resolved the love triangle; so now he's gonna have to sell Delta's movies based on the plot and singing alone, and Delta is performing alright in Japan, but it's not near the levels of Frontier. And sadly, all of this talking about the short-comings of his series has dug up my repressed memories of his older works. If you were to go back and watch the first Sousei no Aquarion, it's an utter mess of a show even for someone like me who watched it years ago. Trying to figure out what's going on based on the in-universe lore before you even account for how EVOL and Logos changed and added things (oh, and the movie and spin-off OVA, we can't forget), likelihood is you'll think the man is crazy. The fact he never planned for sequels back then is insane considering how much of that series is a freaking crash course in all the wrong writing choices. It's entertaining, yes; sort of like how Guilty Crown is pretty to look at till you watch it with a critical eye; but it's got a lot of camp, and a lot of characters make dumb or sometimes outright ridiculous decisions for the sake of advancing the plot and all of it feels very forced in areas. This is why I always felt EVOL was a bit of an improvement over Sousei no Aquarion, because at least the main leads had progression that felt fitting of their characters on average vs. forced development for plot progression. But it's always kind of been Kawamori's thing: To force characters into situations you naturally would think is against a character's personality simply so he can advance a plot. And Delta's no exception to this, in fact, it's like the best example in the form of Mikumo and Hayate at points. And it's freaking annoying, to be honest. But it's less intrusive overall because it never affects the outcome of the plot whereas it did in his older works.