[azul120]

Originally Posted by Yamiken

Whilst a lot of what happened in Code Geass did have Murphy's Law at work, you can't therefore argue that it's some sort of law of nature in that universe. Bad luck happens, but if it's happening constantly, it's no longer bad luck.

Anyway, I'm not saying that after the Zero Requiem, everything was unicorns and rainbows. No one is, so far as I know; even Kallen's ending narration admits there are still big problems to sort out. What is being argued is that the Zero Requiem accomplished its stated goal of stopping the previously never-ending conflicts between superpowers which had marred the world. My comparison with Europe is perfectly valid; indeed, the world of Code Geass seems in many ways to resemble a scaled-up version of 19th-century/early-20th-century Europe. That too used to be a febrile bed of great powers constantly competing for resources and glory; now, a great war between any of them would be unthinkable. There is no reason why what worked for Europe could not work for the world in some form, either our world or the world of Code Geass.

Correct, we don't know. You don't seem to realise, though, that this hurts your argument as much as it hurts mine. When you don't know something, that means you don't know it, not that one point of view can be assumed true by default. My reasoning is thus: since we never see Lelouch managing a peacetime government, we don't know how well he'd do at it. Therefore, we can either simply say nothing on the matter, or, if we wish, make an educated guess (which must naturally have the caveat that it is not a certainty). The former may well be the wiser option, honestly, but since we've come this far down the latter road we may as well continue (yay sunken costs fallacy). To make an educated guess, we must extrapolate based on the traits of his character that we are shown. That is what I am attempting to do here.

With that in mind, it's a big waste, given the loss of a strategic mind in Lelouch and the Mt. Fuji explosion likely causing an energy crisis.

My observations are thus:
- Peacetime governance requires a drastically different set of skills and personality traits to wartime governance.
- Many individuals undeniably skilled at the latter prove to be a lot less stellar at the former (this was the point of my Churchill comparison; it was one of personality archetypes, not of circumstances).
- Lelouch, in my view, is likely to be in this category, for reasons I've waxed lyrical on already (in particular, to put it in terms of tropes, he's a shining example of The Unfettered, which I contend is a personality archetype ill-suited to the tasks required of successful peacetime governance).

Whether or not he'd be a good peacetime leader, he'd be useful for something or other, considering that we see Cornelia and Guilford helping out during the post-series picture drama.

Worming implies some sort of autonomy already. You seem to be viewing the Geass as a shackle against which the victim can actively strain. All evidence is to the contrary; once the Geass actually fully sets in, the victim has in all cases complied fully and without restraint, even happily. They don't attempt to get around the commands; they just carry them out, to the best of their ability. Schneizel might be able to cause trouble if he attempted to lawyer the Geass, true; but the point is, he wouldn't, because no one does. The bottom line is, whilst it might be possible even then for Schneizel to one day somehow decide that serving Zero can be best done through means other than what Lelouch and Suzaku intended, it's highly, highly unlikely.

He doesn't necessarily have to be under the beck and call of the geass every single moment.

So why do you keep saying he'd make a good leader?

I'm not saying I necessarily condone it, but I understand. Objectively speaking, suicide is something that should be overcome. Lelouch was ultimately being selfish in his reasons. Ideally he would have realized that since it wasn't only about Nunnally, he would have carried on without her, and for added effect, eventually taken C. C.'s code. I mean, he basically punished Suzaku into living on, partly for the latter's suicide attempts. Why couldn't he hold himself to that? The only answer is that There Are No Therapists.

I also remember how powerful Britannia was for the entire series. The Black Knights had to work very hard just to liberate Japan; destroying the entire Britannian Empire was never going to be easy, or even relatively painless. I remain thoroughly unconvinced that the Zero Requiem entailed significantly more destruction, as a sum total, than the other routes open to Lelouch. Particularly when one considers that he would've had to face all of Schneizel's FLEIJAs whatever the case.

Let's not forget that at the end, the BKs were worfing down on the Britannian mooks.

But Nunnally was never fooled! She knew what Schneizel was and what he was doing. She just judged that she could turn it into something positive, and believed that Lelouch was as terrible as he was making himself out to be (and before you say anything, she never had a chance to user her 'lie detector' on Lelouch at that stage).

I was talking about using the lie detector on Schneizel. This was why she declared Lelouch her enemy in the first place. Please read more carefully.

Anyway, I'll concede that as far as the Black Knights go (or rather, Ohgi, Tohdoh and Tamaki), they held the idiot ball at least somewhat with regards to Schneizel's revelations. Nevertheless, it's called the idiot ball because it's an instance of people behaving uncharacteristically stupidly. The whole reason the entire affair was so egregious in the first place was because we expected better of all of them. The point is, therefore, that usually, they're not idiots. They're at least competent, even if they're no geniuses. And that's enough. Lelouch left things to them because he trusted their hearts to be in the right place, not because he thought they were the most brilliant administrators on the planet. Again, they have Schneizel for the canny politicking. All they need to do is not fuck up. I do believe that that is within their capability.

I will concede on Ohgi, though. I have no idea how he wound up Prime Minister after the war. Still, in the defence of Lelouch and the plan, I don't think that was something he was specifically gunning for.

And that is part of why I don't see the ending as a particularly ideal one. Lelouch dead and Ohgi as Prime Minister = massive leadership/brain trust net loss.

Ohgi's the one I was implicating in the betrayal, since he fell for Schneizel first. (Not to mention the counts of hypocrisy and idiocy he never answered for.)

Yes, because everyone with a stockpile of nukes is automatically seen as the epitome of evil, even by their own people. That's why the Cold War was just one long revolution against the governments of the USA and the Soviet Union.

I'll answer this below.

"Barring Schneizel" is a pretty huge caveat. And carte blanche to do what exactly? Reform the world? I don't think the vested interests in Britannia would have gone along quietly with that just because Charles happened to be dead.

He had other options. He had a clean slate. He could have declared Charles as an anti-example if he wanted.

And I've explained why it's not just some 'power of love' ending. There are tangible reasons for it to have worked as well as an intangible feeling of goodwill.

I know he wouldn't have. I'm saying I'm not convinced that he had better options than the Zero Requiem in front of him.

Would that Europe were a single nation. We Europhiles can be dream... snark over exact wording aside, though, I repeat: there is no reason why what worked for Europe cannot work for the world as a whole, given time, effort and a little flexibility. Africa and the Middle East are still seething pits of conflict and/or poverty because no one has, yet, invested the appropriate amounts of resources and know-how into improving the situation there (and I don't just mean outsiders, I mean, probably more importantly, people on the inside as well). I see no good reason why, some day, they couldn't adopt similar models to the European Union. Not identical, certainly, but similar? It could work.

Besides, this is a fictional world. It doesn't have to adhere to quite the same standards as the real world to be credible. Or, rather, so that it doesn't seem like I'm trying to move the goalposts: what standards the real world does adhere to are the subject of much philosophical debate and controversy. A fictional world, by contrast, adheres to a comparatively explicit set of standards, and these standards are allowed to be towards the optimistic end of the possible rang of standards applicable to the real world whilst still being 'realistic'. Of course, how far that acceptable range extends is a subjective matter, so there's only so far we can argue over it.

Unfortunately, it "not being all sunshine and rainbows" hurts the case made for ZR, as there was already a huge price to be paid.

The anti-FLEIJA device was crucial to Lelouch's ultimate success, luck or no luck. Without it, he would've been defeated, no matter how much luck he had. More importantly, Lelouch needed as much time as he ultimately got not just for her to develop it but to find her as well. If he'd precipitated the conflict sooner, he probably wouldn't have found her in time at all. In which case, he'd have lost.

Please reread. I'm not arguing against that. I'm saying that him finding her and the development of the anti-FLEIJA device all happened AFTER Lelouch emerged as Emperor, and the device was being worked on while the FLEIJAs were being fired. He could have conceivably found her and asked her to begin work during the interim month prior to his reappearance. Then the playing field would be evened out a bit more against Schneizel, and he would be better equipped to deal with him however he wanted.